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	<title>Comments on: Hurt Yourself to Hurt Others</title>
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	<description>a group of adventurers on an epic quest</description>
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		<title>By: Kill Ten Rats &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Tell Me How Very Wrong I Am</title>
		<link>http://www.killtenrats.com/2006/12/15/hurt-yourself-to-hurt-others/comment-page-1/#comment-17048</link>
		<dc:creator>Kill Ten Rats &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Tell Me How Very Wrong I Am</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Apr 2007 05:06:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.killtenrats.com/?p=871#comment-17048</guid>
		<description>[...] One reason I write is to learn. We toss ideas out and see how far they go. The blog has ideas, opinions, anecdotes, questions, speculation, snark, rants, reviews, half-formed ideas, and well-considered proposals. My specialty seems to be extended ruminations that explore several aspects of an idea without necessarily going anywhere. We have many notions that could be improved by further discussion and critique. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] One reason I write is to learn. We toss ideas out and see how far they go. The blog has ideas, opinions, anecdotes, questions, speculation, snark, rants, reviews, half-formed ideas, and well-considered proposals. My specialty seems to be extended ruminations that explore several aspects of an idea without necessarily going anywhere. We have many notions that could be improved by further discussion and critique. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Zalamander</title>
		<link>http://www.killtenrats.com/2006/12/15/hurt-yourself-to-hurt-others/comment-page-1/#comment-13043</link>
		<dc:creator>Zalamander</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Dec 2006 14:23:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.killtenrats.com/?p=871#comment-13043</guid>
		<description>Well in games like WoW everyone arent playing same class so even if they have same gear they can always complain on the other class.
And if that doesnt apply they can usualy always find something else to complain on, &quot;-My spec was wrong.&quot;,&quot;-My skills was on cooldown.&quot;.

No onw wants to be a looser without a valid reason, who would openly admit that anyone else is better than them in a game?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well in games like WoW everyone arent playing same class so even if they have same gear they can always complain on the other class.<br />
And if that doesnt apply they can usualy always find something else to complain on, &#8220;-My spec was wrong.&#8221;,&#8221;-My skills was on cooldown.&#8221;.</p>
<p>No onw wants to be a looser without a valid reason, who would openly admit that anyone else is better than them in a game?</p>
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		<title>By: Takeshi</title>
		<link>http://www.killtenrats.com/2006/12/15/hurt-yourself-to-hurt-others/comment-page-1/#comment-12725</link>
		<dc:creator>Takeshi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Dec 2006 12:13:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.killtenrats.com/?p=871#comment-12725</guid>
		<description>Well, when everyone has the same (read equivalent) pvp gear, then all that matters is the skill, right? 
If you have the same gear as the other guy, you can&#039;t whine about how he kills youbecause you can&#039;t get access to the same stuff.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, when everyone has the same (read equivalent) pvp gear, then all that matters is the skill, right?<br />
If you have the same gear as the other guy, you can&#8217;t whine about how he kills youbecause you can&#8217;t get access to the same stuff.</p>
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		<title>By: elysse - Tamarind: monkeys love it! &#187; Blog Archive &#187; a message to Spacedout, based on another article:</title>
		<link>http://www.killtenrats.com/2006/12/15/hurt-yourself-to-hurt-others/comment-page-1/#comment-12579</link>
		<dc:creator>elysse - Tamarind: monkeys love it! &#187; Blog Archive &#187; a message to Spacedout, based on another article:</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Dec 2006 00:40:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.killtenrats.com/?p=871#comment-12579</guid>
		<description>[...] read the full article here [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] read the full article here [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Verilazic</title>
		<link>http://www.killtenrats.com/2006/12/15/hurt-yourself-to-hurt-others/comment-page-1/#comment-12562</link>
		<dc:creator>Verilazic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Dec 2006 19:44:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.killtenrats.com/?p=871#comment-12562</guid>
		<description>You have to admit though that once everyone has GM/HWL gear, PvP is going to look a bit less interesting, just visually. That said, people who are complaining about not being special anymore put too much of their identity in their gear. The people I remember in PvP, I don&#039;t remember their gear, I remember their names, and they were the skilled ones, not the ones I couldn&#039;t kill because their gear was too good.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You have to admit though that once everyone has GM/HWL gear, PvP is going to look a bit less interesting, just visually. That said, people who are complaining about not being special anymore put too much of their identity in their gear. The people I remember in PvP, I don&#8217;t remember their gear, I remember their names, and they were the skilled ones, not the ones I couldn&#8217;t kill because their gear was too good.</p>
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		<title>By: Lachek</title>
		<link>http://www.killtenrats.com/2006/12/15/hurt-yourself-to-hurt-others/comment-page-1/#comment-12541</link>
		<dc:creator>Lachek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Dec 2006 17:37:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.killtenrats.com/?p=871#comment-12541</guid>
		<description>I rarely read boards, so I don&#039;t have any good examples on in-game board lobbying like this. I could be wrong, but I just can&#039;t see any notable percentage of hardcore (read: That South Park WoW Guy) gamers actually having the foresight to think ahead to that degree - most just screams about nerfs done to &quot;their&quot; class and call for nerfs to the classes of others&#039;, in my experience. That is not to say that what you&#039;re referring to (see post title) doesn&#039;t go on - I just don&#039;t think it&#039;s very common.

An example from real life is the patent system, especially as it relates to software. Note that patent law was designed to protect the &quot;little guy&quot; from the &quot;big guys&quot; - someone could invent a fancy new can opener, patent it, and gain exclusive rights for some fixed amount of time after which the giant corps could start to copy and mass-market your design. But nowadays, the big commercial software giants are practically falling over themselves trying to fund more and more patent laws to apply to their fields, because they know that smaller software developers will not have the funds or manpower to sift through and interpret the thousands upon thousands of patents already granted to see if any of them infringes on the algorithms they&#039;re about to write. The big guys, on the other hand, can have a cadre of patent lawyers at their beck and call to scrutinize any technique used in new, promising software to see if it could be construed to infringe on one of the patents in their existing library. The majority of these cases don&#039;t even go to court - a small software developer will just fold, be engulfed or pay a license fee since the cost would be higher to go through litigation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I rarely read boards, so I don&#8217;t have any good examples on in-game board lobbying like this. I could be wrong, but I just can&#8217;t see any notable percentage of hardcore (read: That South Park WoW Guy) gamers actually having the foresight to think ahead to that degree &#8211; most just screams about nerfs done to &#8220;their&#8221; class and call for nerfs to the classes of others&#8217;, in my experience. That is not to say that what you&#8217;re referring to (see post title) doesn&#8217;t go on &#8211; I just don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s very common.</p>
<p>An example from real life is the patent system, especially as it relates to software. Note that patent law was designed to protect the &#8220;little guy&#8221; from the &#8220;big guys&#8221; &#8211; someone could invent a fancy new can opener, patent it, and gain exclusive rights for some fixed amount of time after which the giant corps could start to copy and mass-market your design. But nowadays, the big commercial software giants are practically falling over themselves trying to fund more and more patent laws to apply to their fields, because they know that smaller software developers will not have the funds or manpower to sift through and interpret the thousands upon thousands of patents already granted to see if any of them infringes on the algorithms they&#8217;re about to write. The big guys, on the other hand, can have a cadre of patent lawyers at their beck and call to scrutinize any technique used in new, promising software to see if it could be construed to infringe on one of the patents in their existing library. The majority of these cases don&#8217;t even go to court &#8211; a small software developer will just fold, be engulfed or pay a license fee since the cost would be higher to go through litigation.</p>
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		<title>By: tide</title>
		<link>http://www.killtenrats.com/2006/12/15/hurt-yourself-to-hurt-others/comment-page-1/#comment-12539</link>
		<dc:creator>tide</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Dec 2006 17:17:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.killtenrats.com/?p=871#comment-12539</guid>
		<description>well, I can&#039;t think of anything better than the SWG community forums heatdeath over Jedi.  Other than maybe old time Trammel or EQ1 progression discussions.  Namely, how Jedi should be unlocked or made more accessible.  It literally started before the game was released, and once GM&#039;d it lasted until the class and content was actually added to the game, and then didn&#039;t end until nearly 1.5 years later (at patch09).   THe later anger over the NGE was prepped by this unending pro/con lobbying over &quot;make-Jedi-hard-to-get-but-not-for-me&quot; discussions.  WoW&#039;s honor points is silly by comparison.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>well, I can&#8217;t think of anything better than the SWG community forums heatdeath over Jedi.  Other than maybe old time Trammel or EQ1 progression discussions.  Namely, how Jedi should be unlocked or made more accessible.  It literally started before the game was released, and once GM&#8217;d it lasted until the class and content was actually added to the game, and then didn&#8217;t end until nearly 1.5 years later (at patch09).   THe later anger over the NGE was prepped by this unending pro/con lobbying over &#8220;make-Jedi-hard-to-get-but-not-for-me&#8221; discussions.  WoW&#8217;s honor points is silly by comparison.</p>
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		<title>By: yunk</title>
		<link>http://www.killtenrats.com/2006/12/15/hurt-yourself-to-hurt-others/comment-page-1/#comment-12536</link>
		<dc:creator>yunk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Dec 2006 16:53:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.killtenrats.com/?p=871#comment-12536</guid>
		<description>I was just thinking of this exact subject today since Tobold wrote last night about raid loot and an idea about making it more like PVP loot is now: where you can buy it with &quot;raid points&quot;. Which of course any true hardcore player would be against.

Some are actually honest though. I&#039;ve read in forums people upset about the PvP changes who actually admitted &quot;now i&#039;m not special&quot;. 

I have the &quot;Private&quot; rank displayed on Yunk&#039;s character because she is proud of her previous military service! Hey she&#039;s just a little gnome.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was just thinking of this exact subject today since Tobold wrote last night about raid loot and an idea about making it more like PVP loot is now: where you can buy it with &#8220;raid points&#8221;. Which of course any true hardcore player would be against.</p>
<p>Some are actually honest though. I&#8217;ve read in forums people upset about the PvP changes who actually admitted &#8220;now i&#8217;m not special&#8221;. </p>
<p>I have the &#8220;Private&#8221; rank displayed on Yunk&#8217;s character because she is proud of her previous military service! Hey she&#8217;s just a little gnome.</p>
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		<title>By: BitterCupOJoe</title>
		<link>http://www.killtenrats.com/2006/12/15/hurt-yourself-to-hurt-others/comment-page-1/#comment-12533</link>
		<dc:creator>BitterCupOJoe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Dec 2006 16:06:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.killtenrats.com/?p=871#comment-12533</guid>
		<description>If/when I get my game going, the first person that bitches on my boards that players are leveling too fast gets themselves a permaban.

That said, there have been cases where gamestyles have become &quot;easy mode, &quot; because developers didn&#039;t think things through.  The best example I can think of, with an attendant backlash later, was CoH&#039;s tanks:  90% resistance, 95% defense, improved health regeration, permanent +hp powers, AoE attacks.  I used to herd up 8-person maps and kill them, by myself.  I would pay newbies in influence to be on my team but not in my missions in order to crank up the number of enemies in the mission.  I did the last 10 levels doing almost nothing but this and helping folks through the respec mission.  And when I5 came around, I was a strong defender of it, particularly on the livejournal city_of_heroes community.  Same thing for ED.  The game, played as a tank or a scrapper, was easy mode, and it was boring.  There was never a chance of dying, if you had even the teensiest bit of skill.  And because there was no chance of dying, there was plenty of incentive to drag your friends around and powerlevel them, since all it was doing was slowing you down a little, whereas letting them level alone slowed them down a lot.

Nerfing has its place.  When one class or skillset far outstrips the others, that needs to be handled.  But if it&#039;s the case where no one in the game suffers except for hardcore 31337 players, then, frankly, I think it&#039;s grand to make them suffer.  They&#039;ve done enough damage to the genre as it is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If/when I get my game going, the first person that bitches on my boards that players are leveling too fast gets themselves a permaban.</p>
<p>That said, there have been cases where gamestyles have become &#8220;easy mode, &#8221; because developers didn&#8217;t think things through.  The best example I can think of, with an attendant backlash later, was CoH&#8217;s tanks:  90% resistance, 95% defense, improved health regeration, permanent +hp powers, AoE attacks.  I used to herd up 8-person maps and kill them, by myself.  I would pay newbies in influence to be on my team but not in my missions in order to crank up the number of enemies in the mission.  I did the last 10 levels doing almost nothing but this and helping folks through the respec mission.  And when I5 came around, I was a strong defender of it, particularly on the livejournal city_of_heroes community.  Same thing for ED.  The game, played as a tank or a scrapper, was easy mode, and it was boring.  There was never a chance of dying, if you had even the teensiest bit of skill.  And because there was no chance of dying, there was plenty of incentive to drag your friends around and powerlevel them, since all it was doing was slowing you down a little, whereas letting them level alone slowed them down a lot.</p>
<p>Nerfing has its place.  When one class or skillset far outstrips the others, that needs to be handled.  But if it&#8217;s the case where no one in the game suffers except for hardcore 31337 players, then, frankly, I think it&#8217;s grand to make them suffer.  They&#8217;ve done enough damage to the genre as it is.</p>
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		<title>By: Oz</title>
		<link>http://www.killtenrats.com/2006/12/15/hurt-yourself-to-hurt-others/comment-page-1/#comment-12532</link>
		<dc:creator>Oz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Dec 2006 15:54:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.killtenrats.com/?p=871#comment-12532</guid>
		<description>&quot;Nerf X class because one beat me once&quot;

Complaining that some class is overpowered simply because once the stars all aligned for them is a classic one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Nerf X class because one beat me once&#8221;</p>
<p>Complaining that some class is overpowered simply because once the stars all aligned for them is a classic one.</p>
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