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	<title>Comments on: Is Diablo an MMO?</title>
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	<link>http://www.killtenrats.com/2007/06/26/post-idea-is-diablo-an-mmo/</link>
	<description>a group of adventurers on an epic quest</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 04 Dec 2008 07:30:23 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Amber</title>
		<link>http://www.killtenrats.com/2007/06/26/post-idea-is-diablo-an-mmo/#comment-22814</link>
		<dc:creator>Amber</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jun 2007 21:11:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.killtenrats.com/?p=1076#comment-22814</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;EQ1 had the Lost Dungeons of Norrath, which changed every time you played (well, actually, they selected from a few). If someone just played by hanging out in the North Ro Wayfarer camp, grabbing a group, and doing LDoNs over and over — as many people did — were they playing an MMO?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

You're shifting the reality of the game to the player's perspective, rather than the reality of the world as it's been designed.  The fact that (in your example) you're not availing yourself of the rest of the world doesn't mean it ceases to exist as a MMO.  If I'm playing cards in chat with my group mates, EQ doesn't become a card game.  My personal experience is that EQ--for the moment, and for a limited scope--facilitates a card game, but it's a localized experience.  Meanwhile the rest of the world continues to exist as designed.

I think what really squashes the idea of Diablo being an MMO is the first "M"--Massive.  You can only have, what?, 8 players in any given Diablo instance? (it's been a long time, I forget)  That's not massive by any definition.  Yes you can have a ton of players in the lobby, but the lobby isn't the game.  The lobby is chat.  It's completely disconnected from the actual game.  The fact that you can play Diablo as a single-player game with no online connectivity attests to the lobby's small importance to the actual game.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>EQ1 had the Lost Dungeons of Norrath, which changed every time you played (well, actually, they selected from a few). If someone just played by hanging out in the North Ro Wayfarer camp, grabbing a group, and doing LDoNs over and over — as many people did — were they playing an MMO?</p></blockquote>
<p>You&#8217;re shifting the reality of the game to the player&#8217;s perspective, rather than the reality of the world as it&#8217;s been designed.  The fact that (in your example) you&#8217;re not availing yourself of the rest of the world doesn&#8217;t mean it ceases to exist as a MMO.  If I&#8217;m playing cards in chat with my group mates, EQ doesn&#8217;t become a card game.  My personal experience is that EQ&#8211;for the moment, and for a limited scope&#8211;facilitates a card game, but it&#8217;s a localized experience.  Meanwhile the rest of the world continues to exist as designed.</p>
<p>I think what really squashes the idea of Diablo being an MMO is the first &#8220;M&#8221;&#8211;Massive.  You can only have, what?, 8 players in any given Diablo instance? (it&#8217;s been a long time, I forget)  That&#8217;s not massive by any definition.  Yes you can have a ton of players in the lobby, but the lobby isn&#8217;t the game.  The lobby is chat.  It&#8217;s completely disconnected from the actual game.  The fact that you can play Diablo as a single-player game with no online connectivity attests to the lobby&#8217;s small importance to the actual game.</p>
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		<title>By: Tipa</title>
		<link>http://www.killtenrats.com/2007/06/26/post-idea-is-diablo-an-mmo/#comment-22813</link>
		<dc:creator>Tipa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jun 2007 20:11:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.killtenrats.com/?p=1076#comment-22813</guid>
		<description>EQ1 had the Lost Dungeons of Norrath, which changed every time you played (well, actually, they selected from a few). If someone just played by hanging out in the North Ro Wayfarer camp, grabbing a group, and doing LDoNs over and over -- as many people did -- were they playing an MMO?

D2 had persistent characters, levels, loot, group and solo play, quests and all that -- and it even had a community. About the only thing it doesn't have is the ability to customize your own avatar -- and if we choose that as the tipping point, than WoW and EQ1 are just barely MMOs (and CoX becomes the most MMO-ish game ever!)

All characters look pretty much alike in their armor. You recognize someone by the name hanging over their head. Diablo 2 has that.

D2 is an MMO.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>EQ1 had the Lost Dungeons of Norrath, which changed every time you played (well, actually, they selected from a few). If someone just played by hanging out in the North Ro Wayfarer camp, grabbing a group, and doing LDoNs over and over &#8212; as many people did &#8212; were they playing an MMO?</p>
<p>D2 had persistent characters, levels, loot, group and solo play, quests and all that &#8212; and it even had a community. About the only thing it doesn&#8217;t have is the ability to customize your own avatar &#8212; and if we choose that as the tipping point, than WoW and EQ1 are just barely MMOs (and CoX becomes the most MMO-ish game ever!)</p>
<p>All characters look pretty much alike in their armor. You recognize someone by the name hanging over their head. Diablo 2 has that.</p>
<p>D2 is an MMO.</p>
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		<title>By: Amber</title>
		<link>http://www.killtenrats.com/2007/06/26/post-idea-is-diablo-an-mmo/#comment-22812</link>
		<dc:creator>Amber</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jun 2007 19:54:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.killtenrats.com/?p=1076#comment-22812</guid>
		<description>I think to really answer the question, you need to look at how Diablo would be pitched and marketed as a product.  Would you pitch it as a MMO?  I don't think so.  It has MMO elements, but the sum of its parts doesn't make an MMO.

The big thing that keeps Diablo from being a MMO in the classic sense of the term is not just its lack of persistence, but also the lack of a persistent community within a single instance (shard/realm/server) of the world.  The lobby is somewhat persistent, but it isn't tied so much to your avatar as to your account.

Diablo also lacks a virtual geography.  You aren't so much in the world of Diablo as you are in tightly controlled enclaves of the world.  Furthermore, those settings change their layout every time you play.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think to really answer the question, you need to look at how Diablo would be pitched and marketed as a product.  Would you pitch it as a MMO?  I don&#8217;t think so.  It has MMO elements, but the sum of its parts doesn&#8217;t make an MMO.</p>
<p>The big thing that keeps Diablo from being a MMO in the classic sense of the term is not just its lack of persistence, but also the lack of a persistent community within a single instance (shard/realm/server) of the world.  The lobby is somewhat persistent, but it isn&#8217;t tied so much to your avatar as to your account.</p>
<p>Diablo also lacks a virtual geography.  You aren&#8217;t so much in the world of Diablo as you are in tightly controlled enclaves of the world.  Furthermore, those settings change their layout every time you play.</p>
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		<title>By: mike</title>
		<link>http://www.killtenrats.com/2007/06/26/post-idea-is-diablo-an-mmo/#comment-22811</link>
		<dc:creator>mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jun 2007 18:22:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.killtenrats.com/?p=1076#comment-22811</guid>
		<description>It's weird.  A lot of the value that I get out of WoW is that my character is permanent and exists somewhere outside of my computer's hard drive.   If something rare drops and I pick it up, I can give it to a friend or wear it to show off to other people; as I accumulate levels there's a server somewhere that tracks my progress relative to other people.  And those other people are around should I choose to play with them, even if I really only play with my friends.

All this is in Diablo 2.  I'll admit that not having non-instanced areas is a big drawback.  Aaron's point about character identification is valid--Diablo had no personalization past character name--but plenty of mainstream MMOs encourage you to treat your dude as a playing piece instead of a little you.

Is it worth noting that multiplayer play in D2 wasn't very good?  There wasn't much synergy between characters, and no enemies that actually required cooperation to defeat.  It was common to get a bunch of people in the world so enemies would be tougher and give more XP, but you'd all play in different places to not step on each other's toes.  It could be that this experience--playing solo in the same game as inarticulate strangers--causes me to think D2 is more MMOey than most people do. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s weird.  A lot of the value that I get out of WoW is that my character is permanent and exists somewhere outside of my computer&#8217;s hard drive.   If something rare drops and I pick it up, I can give it to a friend or wear it to show off to other people; as I accumulate levels there&#8217;s a server somewhere that tracks my progress relative to other people.  And those other people are around should I choose to play with them, even if I really only play with my friends.</p>
<p>All this is in Diablo 2.  I&#8217;ll admit that not having non-instanced areas is a big drawback.  Aaron&#8217;s point about character identification is valid&#8211;Diablo had no personalization past character name&#8211;but plenty of mainstream MMOs encourage you to treat your dude as a playing piece instead of a little you.</p>
<p>Is it worth noting that multiplayer play in D2 wasn&#8217;t very good?  There wasn&#8217;t much synergy between characters, and no enemies that actually required cooperation to defeat.  It was common to get a bunch of people in the world so enemies would be tougher and give more XP, but you&#8217;d all play in different places to not step on each other&#8217;s toes.  It could be that this experience&#8211;playing solo in the same game as inarticulate strangers&#8211;causes me to think D2 is more MMOey than most people do. :)</p>
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		<title>By: Tipa</title>
		<link>http://www.killtenrats.com/2007/06/26/post-idea-is-diablo-an-mmo/#comment-22810</link>
		<dc:creator>Tipa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jun 2007 18:21:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.killtenrats.com/?p=1076#comment-22810</guid>
		<description>QVC isn't an MMO, but it could be. Let's say you could only buy QVC stuff with QVC Bucks. And you earned QVC Bucks by waiting for a special logo to appear on the screen. If you called a certain number within 30 seconds, you would receive one QVC Buck. Get enough and you can buy something from QVC.

You see in the newspaper someone selling QVC Bucks for cash. QVC has now, by Tipa's First Rule of MMO Categorization, become an MMO.

The other way you can tell if something is an MMO is if it's isomorphic with an MMO.

Sure, shopping may seem like a funny idea for an MMO. But the MMO world is being pretty constrained by having to be similar to old MUDs. Future MUD-derived MMOs risk just being parodies of MMOs, a line Vanguard is edging. ("Your game has ten races? We have fifty! Your game has six classes? We have ninety-two! Your game world is the size of Rhode Island? Ours is the size of Canada and Greenland put together! Your game runs on an old Pentium 2? Ours takes a Cray! Our mountains are twice as high and our oceans twice as deep! So there! Our game crushes your puny game!")</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>QVC isn&#8217;t an MMO, but it could be. Let&#8217;s say you could only buy QVC stuff with QVC Bucks. And you earned QVC Bucks by waiting for a special logo to appear on the screen. If you called a certain number within 30 seconds, you would receive one QVC Buck. Get enough and you can buy something from QVC.</p>
<p>You see in the newspaper someone selling QVC Bucks for cash. QVC has now, by Tipa&#8217;s First Rule of MMO Categorization, become an MMO.</p>
<p>The other way you can tell if something is an MMO is if it&#8217;s isomorphic with an MMO.</p>
<p>Sure, shopping may seem like a funny idea for an MMO. But the MMO world is being pretty constrained by having to be similar to old MUDs. Future MUD-derived MMOs risk just being parodies of MMOs, a line Vanguard is edging. (&#8221;Your game has ten races? We have fifty! Your game has six classes? We have ninety-two! Your game world is the size of Rhode Island? Ours is the size of Canada and Greenland put together! Your game runs on an old Pentium 2? Ours takes a Cray! Our mountains are twice as high and our oceans twice as deep! So there! Our game crushes your puny game!&#8221;)</p>
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		<title>By: Julian</title>
		<link>http://www.killtenrats.com/2007/06/26/post-idea-is-diablo-an-mmo/#comment-22809</link>
		<dc:creator>Julian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jun 2007 16:48:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.killtenrats.com/?p=1076#comment-22809</guid>
		<description>RMT is by now built in in Gunbound. Is Gunbound an MMO then?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>RMT is by now built in in Gunbound. Is Gunbound an MMO then?</p>
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		<title>By: wilhelm2451</title>
		<link>http://www.killtenrats.com/2007/06/26/post-idea-is-diablo-an-mmo/#comment-22808</link>
		<dc:creator>wilhelm2451</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jun 2007 14:55:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.killtenrats.com/?p=1076#comment-22808</guid>
		<description>QVC in an MMO!  My mother is a gamer!

I have often wondered about the apparently thriving RMT black market for Diablo 2.  I suppose it is a sign of success, but still.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>QVC in an MMO!  My mother is a gamer!</p>
<p>I have often wondered about the apparently thriving RMT black market for Diablo 2.  I suppose it is a sign of success, but still.</p>
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		<title>By: Tipa</title>
		<link>http://www.killtenrats.com/2007/06/26/post-idea-is-diablo-an-mmo/#comment-22806</link>
		<dc:creator>Tipa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jun 2007 13:26:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.killtenrats.com/?p=1076#comment-22806</guid>
		<description>My definition of an MMO is any game where strangers will try to sell you gold and items for real life cash. By that definition, Diablo 2 is an MMO.

When wondering if a game is or is not an MMO, I look to the gold farmers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My definition of an MMO is any game where strangers will try to sell you gold and items for real life cash. By that definition, Diablo 2 is an MMO.</p>
<p>When wondering if a game is or is not an MMO, I look to the gold farmers.</p>
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