Comments on: Pirates of the Burning Sea http://www.killtenrats.com/2007/12/04/pirates-of-the-burning-sea/ a group of adventurers on an epic quest Fri, 19 Mar 2010 05:37:15 -0600 http://wordpress.org/?v=abc hourly 1 By: Julian http://www.killtenrats.com/2007/12/04/pirates-of-the-burning-sea/comment-page-1/#comment-25333 Julian Thu, 27 Dec 2007 18:44:40 +0000 http://www.killtenrats.com/2007/12/04/pirates-of-the-burning-sea/#comment-25333 /wrists /wrists

]]> By: Cyndre http://www.killtenrats.com/2007/12/04/pirates-of-the-burning-sea/comment-page-1/#comment-25330 Cyndre Thu, 27 Dec 2007 17:13:39 +0000 http://www.killtenrats.com/2007/12/04/pirates-of-the-burning-sea/#comment-25330 [...Anyway, this is my first and probably last visit to this website. Good day....] We are weeping at the loss of such a dedicated reader. [...Anyway, this is my first and probably last visit to this website. Good day....]

We are weeping at the loss of such a dedicated reader.

]]> By: Braxton http://www.killtenrats.com/2007/12/04/pirates-of-the-burning-sea/comment-page-1/#comment-25328 Braxton Thu, 27 Dec 2007 03:03:38 +0000 http://www.killtenrats.com/2007/12/04/pirates-of-the-burning-sea/#comment-25328 For the record, PotBS does not FORCE you to do the missions at all, they are there as an option. You are perfectly capable of doing no missions and leveling up in this game. You get far more experience hunting ships on the open sea than you do in missions anyway, and for money there is the player run economy (which does have a mission you'll want to run before getting to deep into because it gives you a good breakdown on how it works as well as some free stuff and a ship). The missions are there for people who don't feel safe going out on the open sea right away or look at them as a way to make some quick cash. The leveling in the game also goes much more quickly than any other MMO I've ever seen, and I think this is in part because the core of the game (PvP and RvR combat) is not decided entirely by a players level, but also by their skill with the ship they are sailing. I'm sorry Lachek, but I think you had to have made a conscious decision to not actually look at the game you are playing to say it's a "WoW" clone with the missions. Anyway, this is my first and probably last visit to this website. Good day. For the record, PotBS does not FORCE you to do the missions at all, they are there as an option. You are perfectly capable of doing no missions and leveling up in this game. You get far more experience hunting ships on the open sea than you do in missions anyway, and for money there is the player run economy (which does have a mission you’ll want to run before getting to deep into because it gives you a good breakdown on how it works as well as some free stuff and a ship).

The missions are there for people who don’t feel safe going out on the open sea right away or look at them as a way to make some quick cash.

The leveling in the game also goes much more quickly than any other MMO I’ve ever seen, and I think this is in part because the core of the game (PvP and RvR combat) is not decided entirely by a players level, but also by their skill with the ship they are sailing.

I’m sorry Lachek, but I think you had to have made a conscious decision to not actually look at the game you are playing to say it’s a “WoW” clone with the missions.

Anyway, this is my first and probably last visit to this website. Good day.

]]> By: Lachek http://www.killtenrats.com/2007/12/04/pirates-of-the-burning-sea/comment-page-1/#comment-25142 Lachek Wed, 05 Dec 2007 18:45:08 +0000 http://www.killtenrats.com/2007/12/04/pirates-of-the-burning-sea/#comment-25142 Funny. My initial experience was identical to Cyndre's. "What the hell is this crap?!" After all the talk of player-run economies and world PvP, combined with the gameplay I know and love from Sid Meier's Pirates! (both original and remade version), I thought I was in for a hell of a treat. Instead, I got served an uninspired tutorial, a clunky interface and horrid disjointed 3D graphics in a game which essentially seemed to amount to a WoW-style quest-running treadmill. That was the first 45 minutes. I didn't look back. Judging by what Cyndre is saying above, maybe I should have. But then again, if the core gameplay is based on Eve-style world PvP and player-run economies, why is FLS giving us something that looks and feels like a clunky WoW clone? Pirates! started you out in a port where you could recruit your first crew, and you were out sailing in the first 10 minutes of gameplay. Why does PotBS force you to run around performing menial tasks for NPCs for an hour before allowing you to smell the salty breeze? Why this apparent emphasis on combat skills, equipment and XP? As a good example of how to do this right, Eve has personal skills and XP (skill points) as well, but strongly de-emphasize them by allowing their accumulation at a fixed rate. It is a throttling mechanic, not an achievement mechanic. And it works! Players set their skill to train, then go out to make a fortune - i.e. playing the game they were sold, not some other poorly implemented game they need to play first in order to get to the game they really wanted. Funny. My initial experience was identical to Cyndre’s.

“What the hell is this crap?!”

After all the talk of player-run economies and world PvP, combined with the gameplay I know and love from Sid Meier’s Pirates! (both original and remade version), I thought I was in for a hell of a treat. Instead, I got served an uninspired tutorial, a clunky interface and horrid disjointed 3D graphics in a game which essentially seemed to amount to a WoW-style quest-running treadmill.

That was the first 45 minutes. I didn’t look back. Judging by what Cyndre is saying above, maybe I should have.

But then again, if the core gameplay is based on Eve-style world PvP and player-run economies, why is FLS giving us something that looks and feels like a clunky WoW clone? Pirates! started you out in a port where you could recruit your first crew, and you were out sailing in the first 10 minutes of gameplay. Why does PotBS force you to run around performing menial tasks for NPCs for an hour before allowing you to smell the salty breeze? Why this apparent emphasis on combat skills, equipment and XP?

As a good example of how to do this right, Eve has personal skills and XP (skill points) as well, but strongly de-emphasize them by allowing their accumulation at a fixed rate. It is a throttling mechanic, not an achievement mechanic. And it works! Players set their skill to train, then go out to make a fortune – i.e. playing the game they were sold, not some other poorly implemented game they need to play first in order to get to the game they really wanted.

]]> By: Cyndre http://www.killtenrats.com/2007/12/04/pirates-of-the-burning-sea/comment-page-1/#comment-25141 Cyndre Wed, 05 Dec 2007 14:04:15 +0000 http://www.killtenrats.com/2007/12/04/pirates-of-the-burning-sea/#comment-25141 My review and subsequent responses seem a bit harsh after rereading them and the following comments... please note that I said I would have bought and played this game for all of the reasons Tobold writes above, and because the community, design team are excellent and the PvP was engaging and meaningful. @ Coherent: [...The problem with this article is that you say you would have bought and played the game if your wife liked it, but then you don’t state what HER issues are. So basically the game is a success except for the fact that it’s a failure with your wife for mysterious reasons....] I asked my wife last night for her reasons so that I could address your question.. She said it was too slow, too many loading screens... she didn't 'get the point' of the game. Didn't know what she was supposed to accomplish. The avatar combat was clunky, the towns all looked exactly the same. Lack of variety. It just wasn't 'her thing.' I didn't add the part about my wife disliking the game as a knock on the game specifically, but more as evidence that people will be quickly disenfranchised by the introduction levels. My wife is very typical of the post-WoW MMO player. She won't put up with pointkess grinds like us old EQ'ers will to some extent. She wants meaningful advancement and variety. She wants to log in and feel like she accomplished something unique, and Pirates does't really deliver that to the new player. Like EVE, Pirates requires more of you to become proficient even. Sure you can sail around, do some quests, but you don't have the instant gratification of the new breed of MMO. That is a good thing and a bad thing, but could be a symptom of a problem that FLS might face getting their game to appeal to a broad range of player. My review and subsequent responses seem a bit harsh after rereading them and the following comments… please note that I said I would have bought and played this game for all of the reasons Tobold writes above, and because the community, design team are excellent and the PvP was engaging and meaningful.

@ Coherent:
[...The problem with this article is that you say you would have bought and played the game if your wife liked it, but then you don’t state what HER issues are. So basically the game is a success except for the fact that it’s a failure with your wife for mysterious reasons....]

I asked my wife last night for her reasons so that I could address your question.. She said it was too slow, too many loading screens… she didn’t ‘get the point’ of the game. Didn’t know what she was supposed to accomplish. The avatar combat was clunky, the towns all looked exactly the same. Lack of variety.

It just wasn’t ‘her thing.’ I didn’t add the part about my wife disliking the game as a knock on the game specifically, but more as evidence that people will be quickly disenfranchised by the introduction levels. My wife is very typical of the post-WoW MMO player. She won’t put up with pointkess grinds like us old EQ’ers will to some extent. She wants meaningful advancement and variety. She wants to log in and feel like she accomplished something unique, and Pirates does’t really deliver that to the new player.

Like EVE, Pirates requires more of you to become proficient even. Sure you can sail around, do some quests, but you don’t have the instant gratification of the new breed of MMO. That is a good thing and a bad thing, but could be a symptom of a problem that FLS might face getting their game to appeal to a broad range of player.

]]> By: Tobold http://www.killtenrats.com/2007/12/04/pirates-of-the-burning-sea/comment-page-1/#comment-25140 Tobold Wed, 05 Dec 2007 12:19:32 +0000 http://www.killtenrats.com/2007/12/04/pirates-of-the-burning-sea/#comment-25140 Some of us enjoy economic gameplay, and in that respect PotBS really shines. The production part is even better than that of EVE, as there is no boring asteroid mining. (EVE has better AHs though). I didn't think the PvE missions were all that bad, but then I'm a big fan of the ship combat. The avatar combat is lacklustre, and I didn't like the PvP, but that just shows how different players are looking for different things. Anyway, the open beta starts Friday for Fileplanet users, Monday for the rest of the world. Unlike WoW this *is* a niche game. Unless you try whether it happens to fall into your particular niche, you won't know whether this is the game for you or not. I'd really, really recommend giving this a try and finding out for yourself while you can do so for free. Some of us enjoy economic gameplay, and in that respect PotBS really shines. The production part is even better than that of EVE, as there is no boring asteroid mining. (EVE has better AHs though). I didn’t think the PvE missions were all that bad, but then I’m a big fan of the ship combat. The avatar combat is lacklustre, and I didn’t like the PvP, but that just shows how different players are looking for different things.

Anyway, the open beta starts Friday for Fileplanet users, Monday for the rest of the world. Unlike WoW this *is* a niche game. Unless you try whether it happens to fall into your particular niche, you won’t know whether this is the game for you or not. I’d really, really recommend giving this a try and finding out for yourself while you can do so for free.

]]> By: Jezebeau http://www.killtenrats.com/2007/12/04/pirates-of-the-burning-sea/comment-page-1/#comment-25138 Jezebeau Wed, 05 Dec 2007 09:50:18 +0000 http://www.killtenrats.com/2007/12/04/pirates-of-the-burning-sea/#comment-25138 @Coherent: I've quit City of Villains three times due to reaching the weak midgame in the mid-30's. I left Anarchy Online way back in the day because I tired of endless door missions and/or grinding on a nigh featureless terrain. EQ2 lost me in the late 50's because, despite end-game content at that point, the level cap had been raised by the time I got there, so it was often difficult to get a group together, but that's beside the point. That most people would toil through it doesn't justify its existence in the first place. The early-game has to be a blast or the reviews at launch will bury the game. The late-game has to be engaging, too, or people will cancel their subscriptions. Why, though, do we need to invest so much time in between those? Force us through fifteen to twenty hours such that people can be trusted to have learned the basic gameplay and tactics of their class, and then let us raid, or PvP, or explore, et cetera. There's no reason the lore and content of the quests that usually occupy the mid-range can't be made into a non-raiding PvE pursuit at the end of the game. How much more fantastic would it be to grind *those* for faction and rewards than wandering mobiles? How much more fun would the quests and stories themselves be when they become the end rather than the means? I'm reminded of GuildWars: Factions. That's when I jumped into the game, and it was exemplary in this right. The tutorial island could be completed in ten to twenty hours, depending on familiarity, and you arrive at the meat of the game within three levels of the maximum, with a reasonable host of skills. After that, sure there's a sequence of content, but it still worked despite not having level barriers. The only necessity is that there's some form of character improvement to keep the incentives flowing until a player's favourite style of play becomes a habit and keeps them playing. @Coherent: I’ve quit City of Villains three times due to reaching the weak midgame in the mid-30’s. I left Anarchy Online way back in the day because I tired of endless door missions and/or grinding on a nigh featureless terrain. EQ2 lost me in the late 50’s because, despite end-game content at that point, the level cap had been raised by the time I got there, so it was often difficult to get a group together, but that’s beside the point.

That most people would toil through it doesn’t justify its existence in the first place. The early-game has to be a blast or the reviews at launch will bury the game. The late-game has to be engaging, too, or people will cancel their subscriptions. Why, though, do we need to invest so much time in between those? Force us through fifteen to twenty hours such that people can be trusted to have learned the basic gameplay and tactics of their class, and then let us raid, or PvP, or explore, et cetera. There’s no reason the lore and content of the quests that usually occupy the mid-range can’t be made into a non-raiding PvE pursuit at the end of the game. How much more fantastic would it be to grind *those* for faction and rewards than wandering mobiles? How much more fun would the quests and stories themselves be when they become the end rather than the means?

I’m reminded of GuildWars: Factions. That’s when I jumped into the game, and it was exemplary in this right. The tutorial island could be completed in ten to twenty hours, depending on familiarity, and you arrive at the meat of the game within three levels of the maximum, with a reasonable host of skills. After that, sure there’s a sequence of content, but it still worked despite not having level barriers. The only necessity is that there’s some form of character improvement to keep the incentives flowing until a player’s favourite style of play becomes a habit and keeps them playing.

]]> By: Severius http://www.killtenrats.com/2007/12/04/pirates-of-the-burning-sea/comment-page-1/#comment-25136 Severius Wed, 05 Dec 2007 04:40:05 +0000 http://www.killtenrats.com/2007/12/04/pirates-of-the-burning-sea/#comment-25136 I have to agree with you on this. PoTBS is an OK game. Not stellar, not horrid, but ok. The one thing that I do like about it is the dev team behind the game. Compared to other betas I have been in, and I have been in a LOT, Flying Labs actually talks with the testers, takes what they have to say and when it's a good idea they implement it i.e. avatar combat. I have to agree with you on this. PoTBS is an OK game. Not stellar, not horrid, but ok. The one thing that I do like about it is the dev team behind the game. Compared to other betas I have been in, and I have been in a LOT, Flying Labs actually talks with the testers, takes what they have to say and when it’s a good idea they implement it i.e. avatar combat.

]]> By: tfangel http://www.killtenrats.com/2007/12/04/pirates-of-the-burning-sea/comment-page-1/#comment-25134 tfangel Wed, 05 Dec 2007 01:51:51 +0000 http://www.killtenrats.com/2007/12/04/pirates-of-the-burning-sea/#comment-25134 "My big question is: if all the effort is going into the end-game, why force us through a mid-game grind? Why not start us with all our spells and abilities and let us play?" I've been wondering this a lot lately. Games like this one that seem to put "the real game" at the peak of levels feel like they put the grind in because it's just the way it's done. In WoW i prefer the lower levels, even when i have seen it all before, it's just fun getting new things and skills so quickly, "end game" raiding bores me to the core, and i just end up grinding honor to get the good gear so i can go play around (which for me ends up being trying to see what i can solo or just goofing off). I wish mmo makers would discover what it is about their game that is fun, and make that the "whole" game. Granted, what one person finds fun another finds boring, so i guess doing that would pigeonhole the makers into a niche, although EvE seems to be doing fine with its one. “My big question is: if all the effort is going into the end-game, why force us through a mid-game grind? Why not start us with all our spells and abilities and let us play?”

I’ve been wondering this a lot lately. Games like this one that seem to put “the real game” at the peak of levels feel like they put the grind in because it’s just the way it’s done. In WoW i prefer the lower levels, even when i have seen it all before, it’s just fun getting new things and skills so quickly, “end game” raiding bores me to the core, and i just end up grinding honor to get the good gear so i can go play around (which for me ends up being trying to see what i can solo or just goofing off). I wish mmo makers would discover what it is about their game that is fun, and make that the “whole” game. Granted, what one person finds fun another finds boring, so i guess doing that would pigeonhole the makers into a niche, although EvE seems to be doing fine with its one.

]]> By: Coherent http://www.killtenrats.com/2007/12/04/pirates-of-the-burning-sea/comment-page-1/#comment-25132 Coherent Wed, 05 Dec 2007 00:45:42 +0000 http://www.killtenrats.com/2007/12/04/pirates-of-the-burning-sea/#comment-25132 @Jezebeau: But I can't envision anyone quitting a game because of weak midgame play if they had a wonderful low-level experience and they hear that the endgame is a blast to play. The midgame is the place where you could skimp on the development dollars and then make it up later. But we're not just talking about powers, what we're really talking about is development time, refinement time. Actual minutes and seconds that the principal designers spend playing through specific level ranges and making sure that no matter where you are, you're having a blast. I always felt that the newbie areas in WoW gets extra attention from high level designers, making sure that there's something really super fun to do and everything looks really engaging to pull you into the game. This is really evident in the Blood Elf starting area. All those glowing mushrooms and mist-shrouded ruins contrasting with the bright and happy areas too. Very memorable, pulls you in. I'm not saying you can ignore the mid-level play, but you could push it back on the schedule and then fill in the gaps later. But you absolutely have to have a fun gameplay introduction, so levels 1-20 have to be amazing. And you absolutely have to have something fun for players to do in high levels of the game and endgame, something that will keep them blissfully happy for at least a year while you get your game established and fill in the cracks. @Jezebeau: But I can’t envision anyone quitting a game because of weak midgame play if they had a wonderful low-level experience and they hear that the endgame is a blast to play. The midgame is the place where you could skimp on the development dollars and then make it up later.

But we’re not just talking about powers, what we’re really talking about is development time, refinement time. Actual minutes and seconds that the principal designers spend playing through specific level ranges and making sure that no matter where you are, you’re having a blast.

I always felt that the newbie areas in WoW gets extra attention from high level designers, making sure that there’s something really super fun to do and everything looks really engaging to pull you into the game. This is really evident in the Blood Elf starting area. All those glowing mushrooms and mist-shrouded ruins contrasting with the bright and happy areas too. Very memorable, pulls you in.

I’m not saying you can ignore the mid-level play, but you could push it back on the schedule and then fill in the gaps later.

But you absolutely have to have a fun gameplay introduction, so levels 1-20 have to be amazing. And you absolutely have to have something fun for players to do in high levels of the game and endgame, something that will keep them blissfully happy for at least a year while you get your game established and fill in the cracks.

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