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	<title>Comments on: Nothing to Think About</title>
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	<link>http://www.killtenrats.com/2008/11/03/nothing-to-think-about/</link>
	<description>a group of adventurers on an epic quest</description>
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		<title>By: slux</title>
		<link>http://www.killtenrats.com/2008/11/03/nothing-to-think-about/comment-page-1/#comment-28494</link>
		<dc:creator>slux</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Nov 2008 20:29:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.killtenrats.com/?p=2555#comment-28494</guid>
		<description>A good game, in my opinion, is one that is easily accessible but deep enough that you can keep analysing it for years. This doesn&#039;t only hold true for MMOs or even computer games but board games, sports etc. I think it has also been one of the factors that make WoW a successful game.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A good game, in my opinion, is one that is easily accessible but deep enough that you can keep analysing it for years. This doesn&#8217;t only hold true for MMOs or even computer games but board games, sports etc. I think it has also been one of the factors that make WoW a successful game.</p>
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		<title>By: Melf_Himself</title>
		<link>http://www.killtenrats.com/2008/11/03/nothing-to-think-about/comment-page-1/#comment-28486</link>
		<dc:creator>Melf_Himself</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Nov 2008 13:05:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.killtenrats.com/?p=2555#comment-28486</guid>
		<description>Good thoughts. I guess it&#039;s a trade-off between being new player friendly and retaining your veteran players.

It sucks, especially if you&#039;ve got a game that you&#039;ve played for a while and are trying to get a friend into. You have to carry them for a couple of months, because stuff that seems basic and instinctive to you wraps their mind into a pretzel.

Ultimately though, the skill that you&#039;ve learnt by min-maxing in an RPG are only specific to that particular game. You go and pick up another game, well there&#039;s another 500 skills you have to memorize the functions of. I used to love the min-max game in terms of that, but I have less and less motivation to go through that learning process with new games these days.

Compare it to being a FPS fan. Once you&#039;re good, you&#039;re pretty much good, and you only need an hour or 2 to get used to the different guns etc in a new game before you can dive right in.

I&#039;d really love to see an RPG with more &quot;building-block&quot; typed skills that can be comboed together in very logical ways (the new Warden class in LotRO sounds like a step in the right direction), to cut down on all the crazy mumbo jumbo.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good thoughts. I guess it&#8217;s a trade-off between being new player friendly and retaining your veteran players.</p>
<p>It sucks, especially if you&#8217;ve got a game that you&#8217;ve played for a while and are trying to get a friend into. You have to carry them for a couple of months, because stuff that seems basic and instinctive to you wraps their mind into a pretzel.</p>
<p>Ultimately though, the skill that you&#8217;ve learnt by min-maxing in an RPG are only specific to that particular game. You go and pick up another game, well there&#8217;s another 500 skills you have to memorize the functions of. I used to love the min-max game in terms of that, but I have less and less motivation to go through that learning process with new games these days.</p>
<p>Compare it to being a FPS fan. Once you&#8217;re good, you&#8217;re pretty much good, and you only need an hour or 2 to get used to the different guns etc in a new game before you can dive right in.</p>
<p>I&#8217;d really love to see an RPG with more &#8220;building-block&#8221; typed skills that can be comboed together in very logical ways (the new Warden class in LotRO sounds like a step in the right direction), to cut down on all the crazy mumbo jumbo.</p>
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		<title>By: Tesh</title>
		<link>http://www.killtenrats.com/2008/11/03/nothing-to-think-about/comment-page-1/#comment-28463</link>
		<dc:creator>Tesh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Nov 2008 19:17:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.killtenrats.com/?p=2555#comment-28463</guid>
		<description>Let&#039;s call it... alternate progression.  I&#039;ve got a few &quot;strategy guides&quot; for games I don&#039;t even own and have no intention of playing.  I love digesting game design.  It would be nice to have a game actually reward that sort of mental effort.

That said, I presently work in game development, so perhaps that&#039;s the natural outlet for those who actually care about how games are put together, rather than looking stylish in stupidly proportioned shoulderpads.  The act of thinking is vastly underrated by society at large, but there are still a few places where it&#039;s valuable.  Design and engineering, whether it&#039;s of games or anything else with design intricacies, still needs people who know how to think.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Let&#8217;s call it&#8230; alternate progression.  I&#8217;ve got a few &#8220;strategy guides&#8221; for games I don&#8217;t even own and have no intention of playing.  I love digesting game design.  It would be nice to have a game actually reward that sort of mental effort.</p>
<p>That said, I presently work in game development, so perhaps that&#8217;s the natural outlet for those who actually care about how games are put together, rather than looking stylish in stupidly proportioned shoulderpads.  The act of thinking is vastly underrated by society at large, but there are still a few places where it&#8217;s valuable.  Design and engineering, whether it&#8217;s of games or anything else with design intricacies, still needs people who know how to think.</p>
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		<title>By: Thallian</title>
		<link>http://www.killtenrats.com/2008/11/03/nothing-to-think-about/comment-page-1/#comment-28461</link>
		<dc:creator>Thallian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Nov 2008 17:03:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.killtenrats.com/?p=2555#comment-28461</guid>
		<description>My brother feels the same way. Everything is too simplified (dumbed down) and thus somewhat boring. Go play Baldur&#039;s Gate 2. (again if you have already done it) You won&#039;t be disappointed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My brother feels the same way. Everything is too simplified (dumbed down) and thus somewhat boring. Go play Baldur&#8217;s Gate 2. (again if you have already done it) You won&#8217;t be disappointed.</p>
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		<title>By: I&#8217;m Getting Soft&#8230; &#171; Random Ogre Thoughts</title>
		<link>http://www.killtenrats.com/2008/11/03/nothing-to-think-about/comment-page-1/#comment-28458</link>
		<dc:creator>I&#8217;m Getting Soft&#8230; &#171; Random Ogre Thoughts</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Nov 2008 16:21:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.killtenrats.com/?p=2555#comment-28458</guid>
		<description>[...] Zubon made a good post about this sort of thing, though less specifically aimed at quest helpers, take a read. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Zubon made a good post about this sort of thing, though less specifically aimed at quest helpers, take a read. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: yunk</title>
		<link>http://www.killtenrats.com/2008/11/03/nothing-to-think-about/comment-page-1/#comment-28456</link>
		<dc:creator>yunk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Nov 2008 15:38:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.killtenrats.com/?p=2555#comment-28456</guid>
		<description>I think you copied an older version of the post at the end there.

But yeah, it&#039;s hard to tell, maybe it&#039;s a totally different kind of game, more of a simulator. Games were getting more and more advanced, i remember reading an article by Gygax where he decries the heavy skill based games like Loremaster. he seemed to like it simple. Spend 10 minutes rolling up a character then go at it. 
But really the heavy calculations are almost more fun while I&#039;m not playing the game than they are when I&#039;m playing. I&#039;ll catch myself spending hours on forums and making spreadsheets, arguing over details, and then I think &quot;I could be playing the game right now&quot;.

In some ways I think GW rewards this way of analyzing a lot more, while still keeping it simple. Since you can only use so many powers, there are so many different combinations of powers you can make and it&#039;s easy to switch between and test them out. And more than one formula for everything. But at the same time, you can make a new max level guy and jump in and not think at all. Maybe you&#039;ll get rolled by the team who did min max, but you might still have fun.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think you copied an older version of the post at the end there.</p>
<p>But yeah, it&#8217;s hard to tell, maybe it&#8217;s a totally different kind of game, more of a simulator. Games were getting more and more advanced, i remember reading an article by Gygax where he decries the heavy skill based games like Loremaster. he seemed to like it simple. Spend 10 minutes rolling up a character then go at it.<br />
But really the heavy calculations are almost more fun while I&#8217;m not playing the game than they are when I&#8217;m playing. I&#8217;ll catch myself spending hours on forums and making spreadsheets, arguing over details, and then I think &#8220;I could be playing the game right now&#8221;.</p>
<p>In some ways I think GW rewards this way of analyzing a lot more, while still keeping it simple. Since you can only use so many powers, there are so many different combinations of powers you can make and it&#8217;s easy to switch between and test them out. And more than one formula for everything. But at the same time, you can make a new max level guy and jump in and not think at all. Maybe you&#8217;ll get rolled by the team who did min max, but you might still have fun.</p>
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