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	<title>Comments on: Unthinking Teammates Wanted</title>
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	<link>http://www.killtenrats.com/2008/11/05/unthinking-teammates-wanted/</link>
	<description>a group of adventurers on an epic quest</description>
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		<title>By: UI &#124; Kill Ten Rats</title>
		<link>http://www.killtenrats.com/2008/11/05/unthinking-teammates-wanted/comment-page-1/#comment-29599</link>
		<dc:creator>UI &#124; Kill Ten Rats</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Jan 2009 06:03:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.killtenrats.com/?p=2557#comment-29599</guid>
		<description>[...] for new players. The flight simulator display is for the advanced raider who can use forty buttons without thinking about it. The starting UI is simple enough for granny to start beating up wolves and bunnies. If, you know, [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] for new players. The flight simulator display is for the advanced raider who can use forty buttons without thinking about it. The starting UI is simple enough for granny to start beating up wolves and bunnies. If, you know, [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Zubon</title>
		<link>http://www.killtenrats.com/2008/11/05/unthinking-teammates-wanted/comment-page-1/#comment-28560</link>
		<dc:creator>Zubon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Nov 2008 16:55:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.killtenrats.com/?p=2557#comment-28560</guid>
		<description>GregT, I did include a link to A Theory of Fun.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>GregT, I did include a link to A Theory of Fun.</p>
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		<title>By: GregT</title>
		<link>http://www.killtenrats.com/2008/11/05/unthinking-teammates-wanted/comment-page-1/#comment-28551</link>
		<dc:creator>GregT</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Nov 2008 07:04:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.killtenrats.com/?p=2557#comment-28551</guid>
		<description>... you just wrote Raph Koster&#039;s A Theory of Fun in your own words.  (There was going to be a link here but the relevant website appears to be down.)

Was that a conscious decision, or have you just been talking game design so long it&#039;s become an automatic reaction?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8230; you just wrote Raph Koster&#8217;s A Theory of Fun in your own words.  (There was going to be a link here but the relevant website appears to be down.)</p>
<p>Was that a conscious decision, or have you just been talking game design so long it&#8217;s become an automatic reaction?</p>
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		<title>By: Julian</title>
		<link>http://www.killtenrats.com/2008/11/05/unthinking-teammates-wanted/comment-page-1/#comment-28510</link>
		<dc:creator>Julian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Nov 2008 17:31:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.killtenrats.com/?p=2557#comment-28510</guid>
		<description>I personally don&#039;t buy the unpredictable pvp angle. I think I posted about this a while back.

Once you get to the high echelons of pvp, where the truly skilled players live, you&#039;re not going to see unpredictability. You&#039;re gonna see the complete opposite: Predictability down to a &#039;T&#039;, in which the good warrior has already identified the optimal path to play his class in that environment, because as Zubon says, he&#039;s fought ten thousand battles before. The same thing that grants him his experience, also corrals him into this optimal path, which has variety only in different gear (but not that different, really, gear is a pyramid with a well-defined top) or different environments/buffs/conditions, which are shallow, situational and easily learned.

There are very, very few unpredictable -skilled- pvp players. The gross amount of unpredictability comes from the pvp noobs who do not yet know the optimal path and are free to do anything, both good and bad moves alike.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I personally don&#8217;t buy the unpredictable pvp angle. I think I posted about this a while back.</p>
<p>Once you get to the high echelons of pvp, where the truly skilled players live, you&#8217;re not going to see unpredictability. You&#8217;re gonna see the complete opposite: Predictability down to a &#8216;T&#8217;, in which the good warrior has already identified the optimal path to play his class in that environment, because as Zubon says, he&#8217;s fought ten thousand battles before. The same thing that grants him his experience, also corrals him into this optimal path, which has variety only in different gear (but not that different, really, gear is a pyramid with a well-defined top) or different environments/buffs/conditions, which are shallow, situational and easily learned.</p>
<p>There are very, very few unpredictable -skilled- pvp players. The gross amount of unpredictability comes from the pvp noobs who do not yet know the optimal path and are free to do anything, both good and bad moves alike.</p>
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		<title>By: Thrid</title>
		<link>http://www.killtenrats.com/2008/11/05/unthinking-teammates-wanted/comment-page-1/#comment-28496</link>
		<dc:creator>Thrid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Nov 2008 23:40:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.killtenrats.com/?p=2557#comment-28496</guid>
		<description>I agree that it is better to have someone who can do their job effectively in their sleep, and I know what you mean by &quot;Katas&quot; in games- anyone who&#039;s had any success in PvP as a squishier class knows what it feels like to just do what needs doing.

That said, I don&#039;t especially mind people who have to think about what they are doing, even the ones who are still learning some of the details. Why? It shows they are actually interested in getting to the point that they know what needs to be done. I have had way to many group mates who assumed they knew what they were doing, did it without thinking, and ruined the experience with everyone else. The ones who complain about how underpowered their class is, when they haven&#039;t put any effort into learning it. (I once had a mage whining about how he runs out of mana all the time. Turns out, he had never trained his mana gems because they &quot;didn&#039;t look important&quot;.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree that it is better to have someone who can do their job effectively in their sleep, and I know what you mean by &#8220;Katas&#8221; in games- anyone who&#8217;s had any success in PvP as a squishier class knows what it feels like to just do what needs doing.</p>
<p>That said, I don&#8217;t especially mind people who have to think about what they are doing, even the ones who are still learning some of the details. Why? It shows they are actually interested in getting to the point that they know what needs to be done. I have had way to many group mates who assumed they knew what they were doing, did it without thinking, and ruined the experience with everyone else. The ones who complain about how underpowered their class is, when they haven&#8217;t put any effort into learning it. (I once had a mage whining about how he runs out of mana all the time. Turns out, he had never trained his mana gems because they &#8220;didn&#8217;t look important&#8221;.)</p>
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		<title>By: Anon</title>
		<link>http://www.killtenrats.com/2008/11/05/unthinking-teammates-wanted/comment-page-1/#comment-28493</link>
		<dc:creator>Anon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Nov 2008 18:13:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.killtenrats.com/?p=2557#comment-28493</guid>
		<description>This is the main &quot;hook&quot; in group oriented pvp for me.  

First, there&#039;s trying to get to the point where playing your class reaches the subconcious/reaction level.

Then, assuming you find others who&#039;ve reached this level to team up with, you work together till you get to the point where your group teamwork/coordination/tactics reaches an almost subconcious level.  The larger the group typically the more challenging this becomes.

Then you add the fact that your opponents, if skilled, are always trying to shake things up and &quot;violate your normal pattern&quot; and good pvp battles are the quintessential interesting encounter and an evolving one at that as each side tries to counter each other&#039;s moves.

As an added bonus for MMO&#039;s if you ever get to the point where you have it so down pat it becomes somewhat dull you can try a different spec or reroll a new class and try a totally different role.  Not to mention with the constant addition of content and balance tweaks the tactics both on an individual and group level continue to evolve and change.

It&#039;s almost a zen like feeling when you play with a group of people where both individually and as a group you&#039;ve reached that subconcious level.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is the main &#8220;hook&#8221; in group oriented pvp for me.  </p>
<p>First, there&#8217;s trying to get to the point where playing your class reaches the subconcious/reaction level.</p>
<p>Then, assuming you find others who&#8217;ve reached this level to team up with, you work together till you get to the point where your group teamwork/coordination/tactics reaches an almost subconcious level.  The larger the group typically the more challenging this becomes.</p>
<p>Then you add the fact that your opponents, if skilled, are always trying to shake things up and &#8220;violate your normal pattern&#8221; and good pvp battles are the quintessential interesting encounter and an evolving one at that as each side tries to counter each other&#8217;s moves.</p>
<p>As an added bonus for MMO&#8217;s if you ever get to the point where you have it so down pat it becomes somewhat dull you can try a different spec or reroll a new class and try a totally different role.  Not to mention with the constant addition of content and balance tweaks the tactics both on an individual and group level continue to evolve and change.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s almost a zen like feeling when you play with a group of people where both individually and as a group you&#8217;ve reached that subconcious level.</p>
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		<title>By: SmakenDahed</title>
		<link>http://www.killtenrats.com/2008/11/05/unthinking-teammates-wanted/comment-page-1/#comment-28489</link>
		<dc:creator>SmakenDahed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Nov 2008 13:44:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.killtenrats.com/?p=2557#comment-28489</guid>
		<description>I protest about the contents of this post. Please, refrain from using Ogres as a subject of kills or mass genocide. I&#039;d recommend the use of Gnomes or Dwarves instead.

Spot on. I find that is about when I leave a game. I get comfortable with a class and find myself unchallenged in the least. 

Prime example is my Peace Affinity Cleric in VG. I could keep a whole party up without trying while also doing CC. I also pulled, scouted and used the class abilities to leap frog things.

Much the same can be said about the Hunter I was playing in WoW. I managed to hang on and continue playing up to 70 despite having a feel for things. Double/triple trapping mobs, soloing elites, handling agro/adds while dumping hefty DPS got to be easy.

QFE:
&quot;This is why advanced features trip you up. Give me an encounter that violates the normal pattern of gameplay. Take the normal actions that we do reflexively and have them lead to painful death. You must learn something new. You must think. Now you have an interesting encounter.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I protest about the contents of this post. Please, refrain from using Ogres as a subject of kills or mass genocide. I&#8217;d recommend the use of Gnomes or Dwarves instead.</p>
<p>Spot on. I find that is about when I leave a game. I get comfortable with a class and find myself unchallenged in the least. </p>
<p>Prime example is my Peace Affinity Cleric in VG. I could keep a whole party up without trying while also doing CC. I also pulled, scouted and used the class abilities to leap frog things.</p>
<p>Much the same can be said about the Hunter I was playing in WoW. I managed to hang on and continue playing up to 70 despite having a feel for things. Double/triple trapping mobs, soloing elites, handling agro/adds while dumping hefty DPS got to be easy.</p>
<p>QFE:<br />
&#8220;This is why advanced features trip you up. Give me an encounter that violates the normal pattern of gameplay. Take the normal actions that we do reflexively and have them lead to painful death. You must learn something new. You must think. Now you have an interesting encounter.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: paul</title>
		<link>http://www.killtenrats.com/2008/11/05/unthinking-teammates-wanted/comment-page-1/#comment-28485</link>
		<dc:creator>paul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Nov 2008 11:01:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.killtenrats.com/?p=2557#comment-28485</guid>
		<description>Im not at that stage yet</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Im not at that stage yet</p>
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