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	<title>Comments on: A Case For Massively</title>
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	<description>a group of adventurers on an epic quest</description>
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		<title>By: A DLC Too Far &#124; Kill Ten Rats</title>
		<link>http://www.killtenrats.com/2009/08/05/a-case-for-massively/comment-page-1/#comment-34428</link>
		<dc:creator>A DLC Too Far &#124; Kill Ten Rats</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Oct 2009 12:24:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.killtenrats.com/?p=4495#comment-34428</guid>
		<description>[...] in Borderlands as a service would now have a more concrete understanding of things to come.  MMOs are definitely a service, and so many times we buy the initial offering without having a good [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] in Borderlands as a service would now have a more concrete understanding of things to come.  MMOs are definitely a service, and so many times we buy the initial offering without having a good [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Massively on Massively &#124; Kill Ten Rats</title>
		<link>http://www.killtenrats.com/2009/08/05/a-case-for-massively/comment-page-1/#comment-33909</link>
		<dc:creator>Massively on Massively &#124; Kill Ten Rats</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Sep 2009 00:16:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.killtenrats.com/?p=4495#comment-33909</guid>
		<description>[...] done a case for the term &#8220;massively,&#8221; and it seems Massively decided to take the exploration to a [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] done a case for the term &#8220;massively,&#8221; and it seems Massively decided to take the exploration to a [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Julian</title>
		<link>http://www.killtenrats.com/2009/08/05/a-case-for-massively/comment-page-1/#comment-32869</link>
		<dc:creator>Julian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Aug 2009 15:28:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.killtenrats.com/?p=4495#comment-32869</guid>
		<description>Melf and Psychochild have it in their sights.

I think what once started as a term to encompass a lot (MMOx) has been outgrown, but it can still be used as a valid indicator... perhaps not of the world, but of gameplay, because by now most gamers know what kind of gameplay &#039;MMO&#039; gameplay is, and generally what to expect. So personally I&#039;m just fine with using &#039;MMO&#039; as a gameplay description.

When you get to the actual world it&#039;s a bit trickier because there are huge differences here. If I were to draw a gross classification there are two major types:

- Majorly seamless worlds with instanced pockets (WoW, LOTRO, etc.)
- Majorly instanced worlds with shared pockets (Guild Wars, etc.)

But the key here is that all of these worlds are more or less persistent, accounting for all the little differences in how they implement that persistence. So we should probably focus on that.

They&#039;re not elegant acronyms, but I think SPW (Seamless Persistent World) and IPW (Instanced Persistent World) do the job. Saying, for example, &quot;It&#039;s a Fantasy SPW-MMO&quot; gives you at a glance not only a quite precise idea of how the game world is built, but also the kind of gameplay you can expect and what kind of ambiance and environment to expect, even. I don&#039;t think we should even mention &quot;Massive&quot; or &quot;Multiplayer&quot;. It should be assumed by now, just like you say &quot;car&quot; and not &quot;internal combustion engine car&quot;.

Not pretty, but an elegant solution that&#039;s way more precise than &quot;MMORPG&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Melf and Psychochild have it in their sights.</p>
<p>I think what once started as a term to encompass a lot (MMOx) has been outgrown, but it can still be used as a valid indicator&#8230; perhaps not of the world, but of gameplay, because by now most gamers know what kind of gameplay &#8216;MMO&#8217; gameplay is, and generally what to expect. So personally I&#8217;m just fine with using &#8216;MMO&#8217; as a gameplay description.</p>
<p>When you get to the actual world it&#8217;s a bit trickier because there are huge differences here. If I were to draw a gross classification there are two major types:</p>
<p>- Majorly seamless worlds with instanced pockets (WoW, LOTRO, etc.)<br />
- Majorly instanced worlds with shared pockets (Guild Wars, etc.)</p>
<p>But the key here is that all of these worlds are more or less persistent, accounting for all the little differences in how they implement that persistence. So we should probably focus on that.</p>
<p>They&#8217;re not elegant acronyms, but I think SPW (Seamless Persistent World) and IPW (Instanced Persistent World) do the job. Saying, for example, &#8220;It&#8217;s a Fantasy SPW-MMO&#8221; gives you at a glance not only a quite precise idea of how the game world is built, but also the kind of gameplay you can expect and what kind of ambiance and environment to expect, even. I don&#8217;t think we should even mention &#8220;Massive&#8221; or &#8220;Multiplayer&#8221;. It should be assumed by now, just like you say &#8220;car&#8221; and not &#8220;internal combustion engine car&#8221;.</p>
<p>Not pretty, but an elegant solution that&#8217;s way more precise than &#8220;MMORPG&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Melf_Himself</title>
		<link>http://www.killtenrats.com/2009/08/05/a-case-for-massively/comment-page-1/#comment-32854</link>
		<dc:creator>Melf_Himself</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Aug 2009 06:08:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.killtenrats.com/?p=4495#comment-32854</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t think MMO&#039;s are best labeled according to the literal translation of the term. In the same way that RPG&#039;s *rarely* involve the actual playing of a role (it&#039;s actually about making little numbers go up...)

Anyway.

I agree that any Diablo-style lobby game should be thought of as just as &quot;massive&quot; as, say, WoW, in terms of number of people you will *actually* be interacting with at a given time.

However the term MMO is more useful for saying what form the gameplay will take. If I was going to release a game in the current climate, I would bend over backwards to make sure nobody calls it an MMO, due to the ugly community I would undoubtedly attract (some rare havens of bloggery such as this one excluded of course).

http://word-of-shadow.blogspot.com/2009/07/dont-call-your-new-game-mmo.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think MMO&#8217;s are best labeled according to the literal translation of the term. In the same way that RPG&#8217;s *rarely* involve the actual playing of a role (it&#8217;s actually about making little numbers go up&#8230;)</p>
<p>Anyway.</p>
<p>I agree that any Diablo-style lobby game should be thought of as just as &#8220;massive&#8221; as, say, WoW, in terms of number of people you will *actually* be interacting with at a given time.</p>
<p>However the term MMO is more useful for saying what form the gameplay will take. If I was going to release a game in the current climate, I would bend over backwards to make sure nobody calls it an MMO, due to the ugly community I would undoubtedly attract (some rare havens of bloggery such as this one excluded of course).</p>
<p><a href="http://word-of-shadow.blogspot.com/2009/07/dont-call-your-new-game-mmo.html" rel="nofollow">http://word-of-shadow.blogspot.com/2009/07/dont-call-your-new-game-mmo.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Brian 'Psychochild' Green</title>
		<link>http://www.killtenrats.com/2009/08/05/a-case-for-massively/comment-page-1/#comment-32843</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian 'Psychochild' Green</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Aug 2009 20:50:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.killtenrats.com/?p=4495#comment-32843</guid>
		<description>The original term was created to distinguish games like UO and M59 from &quot;online games&quot; like &lt;i&gt;DOOM&lt;/i&gt; or &lt;i&gt;Quake&lt;/i&gt; that could only handle a smaller number of simultaneous players.  Yes, &lt;i&gt;Meridian 59&lt;/i&gt; is a &quot;massively multiplayer game&quot; by the original definition; it could hold more than 32 (or 64) players.

This distinction has been lost over the years as the games have evolved and changed.  There were epic debates years ago on the MUD-Dev mailing list about if &lt;i&gt;Diablo&lt;/i&gt; was really a MUD/MOO.

Personally, I think the main aspect of these games is persistence.  Persistent characters are one key element (implied by the RPG label), but what about the world?  This is tricky, since a lot of games don&#039;t preserve exact world state anymore.  But, is there any sign in the game that another player did something in the world that didn&#039;t happen in the current play session?  Is a guild hall claimed?  Is some territory owned by one team?  Is loot for sale on the AH from other players?  This is what sets a game apart as an &quot;MMO&quot; (or &lt;acronym title=&quot;Persistent State World&quot;&gt;PSW&lt;/acronym&gt; as others used to say.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The original term was created to distinguish games like UO and M59 from &#8220;online games&#8221; like <i>DOOM</i> or <i>Quake</i> that could only handle a smaller number of simultaneous players.  Yes, <i>Meridian 59</i> is a &#8220;massively multiplayer game&#8221; by the original definition; it could hold more than 32 (or 64) players.</p>
<p>This distinction has been lost over the years as the games have evolved and changed.  There were epic debates years ago on the MUD-Dev mailing list about if <i>Diablo</i> was really a MUD/MOO.</p>
<p>Personally, I think the main aspect of these games is persistence.  Persistent characters are one key element (implied by the RPG label), but what about the world?  This is tricky, since a lot of games don&#8217;t preserve exact world state anymore.  But, is there any sign in the game that another player did something in the world that didn&#8217;t happen in the current play session?  Is a guild hall claimed?  Is some territory owned by one team?  Is loot for sale on the AH from other players?  This is what sets a game apart as an &#8220;MMO&#8221; (or <acronym title="Persistent State World">PSW</acronym> as others used to say.)</p>
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		<title>By: Tesh</title>
		<link>http://www.killtenrats.com/2009/08/05/a-case-for-massively/comment-page-1/#comment-32841</link>
		<dc:creator>Tesh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Aug 2009 19:57:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.killtenrats.com/?p=4495#comment-32841</guid>
		<description>Ravious, when speaking of what sort of OG (Online Game) I&#039;m talking about, I&#039;ve been using the &quot;DIKU&quot; term more recently.  It&#039;s a clear indicator of how the game plays, at least, if you&#039;re familiar with the acronym.

The terminology is definitely outdated and inaccurate, but these games are so wildly different in a lot of ways that the &quot;big tent&quot; term may well stick for a while yet.

As Chris F over at ihaspc has noted before, even WoW, with its multitude of players, needs only forty maximum players to experience everything the game has to offer.  There&#039;s little &quot;massive&quot; about that number.  The game *world*, rife with indirect interaction, ultimately houses more than 40 players, and those other players drive the economy, but the actual *game* of WoW really doesn&#039;t need many people.  Ditto for the rest of these.

&quot;Persistence&quot; in these &quot;virtual worlds&quot; really is more of a relevant indicator of what overall &quot;genre&quot; these games occupy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ravious, when speaking of what sort of OG (Online Game) I&#8217;m talking about, I&#8217;ve been using the &#8220;DIKU&#8221; term more recently.  It&#8217;s a clear indicator of how the game plays, at least, if you&#8217;re familiar with the acronym.</p>
<p>The terminology is definitely outdated and inaccurate, but these games are so wildly different in a lot of ways that the &#8220;big tent&#8221; term may well stick for a while yet.</p>
<p>As Chris F over at ihaspc has noted before, even WoW, with its multitude of players, needs only forty maximum players to experience everything the game has to offer.  There&#8217;s little &#8220;massive&#8221; about that number.  The game *world*, rife with indirect interaction, ultimately houses more than 40 players, and those other players drive the economy, but the actual *game* of WoW really doesn&#8217;t need many people.  Ditto for the rest of these.</p>
<p>&#8220;Persistence&#8221; in these &#8220;virtual worlds&#8221; really is more of a relevant indicator of what overall &#8220;genre&#8221; these games occupy.</p>
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		<title>By: Lorthic</title>
		<link>http://www.killtenrats.com/2009/08/05/a-case-for-massively/comment-page-1/#comment-32839</link>
		<dc:creator>Lorthic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Aug 2009 18:35:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.killtenrats.com/?p=4495#comment-32839</guid>
		<description>Here is the solution: MMOG. Massive Multiplayer Online Game. This indicates the size of the world, that there are possibly many players, it&#039;s online, and obviously a game.

All we need to know. We&#039;ll decide which games we want to play based on the information or experience with said games.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here is the solution: MMOG. Massive Multiplayer Online Game. This indicates the size of the world, that there are possibly many players, it&#8217;s online, and obviously a game.</p>
<p>All we need to know. We&#8217;ll decide which games we want to play based on the information or experience with said games.</p>
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		<title>By: pjharvey</title>
		<link>http://www.killtenrats.com/2009/08/05/a-case-for-massively/comment-page-1/#comment-32838</link>
		<dc:creator>pjharvey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Aug 2009 17:05:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.killtenrats.com/?p=4495#comment-32838</guid>
		<description>Let&#039;s not get confused between &#039;massive&#039; and &#039;massively&#039;.  The latter is an adverb that modifies &#039;multiplayer&#039; and thus should not be taken separately, so the genre is about &#039;massively multiplayer&#039; games, although I agree that the &#039;on-line&#039; aspect is implicit in that description.

Writing explicitly about &#039;massively multiplayer&#039; games perhaps doesn&#039;t make it any more straightforward to define, but it certainly gives more context than simply &#039;massive&#039; does.  Multiplayer games that were not on-line were generally limited to two or four players on consoles and home computers, although LAN play allowed for more players in some examples.

I would say that the tag of MMORPG was created to distinguish between simple games where maybe a couple of dozen players could compete simultaneously and the new breed of game where hundreds, if not thousands, of simultaneous connections were made to a central hub that also allowed any of those players meaningfully interact with any other.  That &#039;shards&#039; or &#039;realms&#039; were created to balance loads and make scaling feasible is not an impediment to the definition, as long as a sufficient quantity of players can meaningfully interact with one another on the same server.

All this is not to say that the genre name couldn&#039;t be redefined to become more descriptive based on the current style of games.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Let&#8217;s not get confused between &#8216;massive&#8217; and &#8216;massively&#8217;.  The latter is an adverb that modifies &#8216;multiplayer&#8217; and thus should not be taken separately, so the genre is about &#8216;massively multiplayer&#8217; games, although I agree that the &#8216;on-line&#8217; aspect is implicit in that description.</p>
<p>Writing explicitly about &#8216;massively multiplayer&#8217; games perhaps doesn&#8217;t make it any more straightforward to define, but it certainly gives more context than simply &#8216;massive&#8217; does.  Multiplayer games that were not on-line were generally limited to two or four players on consoles and home computers, although LAN play allowed for more players in some examples.</p>
<p>I would say that the tag of MMORPG was created to distinguish between simple games where maybe a couple of dozen players could compete simultaneously and the new breed of game where hundreds, if not thousands, of simultaneous connections were made to a central hub that also allowed any of those players meaningfully interact with any other.  That &#8216;shards&#8217; or &#8216;realms&#8217; were created to balance loads and make scaling feasible is not an impediment to the definition, as long as a sufficient quantity of players can meaningfully interact with one another on the same server.</p>
<p>All this is not to say that the genre name couldn&#8217;t be redefined to become more descriptive based on the current style of games.</p>
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		<title>By: Letrange</title>
		<link>http://www.killtenrats.com/2009/08/05/a-case-for-massively/comment-page-1/#comment-32837</link>
		<dc:creator>Letrange</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Aug 2009 16:19:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.killtenrats.com/?p=4495#comment-32837</guid>
		<description>How to define massive:  For me this is simple.  If I know player x is on my server, can I interact with him when he is online?  If x is in X being the number of players on the server and &#124;X&#124; is large &quot;enough&quot; then we can say the game is massive.  For Guild Wars since you can trade various ingredients for crafting with people in the hub and if someone you know plays Guild Wars, you can get together and run some PvE areas together and there is no sub-set then yes Guild Wars is massive.  In that sense it&#039;s better than WoW since there are less restrictions on grouping up (fewer servers = more of the world to gang with).  Remember that from the point of view of raids in WoW, Guild Wars consists of nothing but a bunch of PvP battlegrounds and the entire content ouside the cities is basically instances.  They just cut out the rest of the PvE experience.  But if someone is online, you can meet up in the same city instance and group up to go run a PvE instance since there is free transfer between hub instances.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How to define massive:  For me this is simple.  If I know player x is on my server, can I interact with him when he is online?  If x is in X being the number of players on the server and |X| is large &#8220;enough&#8221; then we can say the game is massive.  For Guild Wars since you can trade various ingredients for crafting with people in the hub and if someone you know plays Guild Wars, you can get together and run some PvE areas together and there is no sub-set then yes Guild Wars is massive.  In that sense it&#8217;s better than WoW since there are less restrictions on grouping up (fewer servers = more of the world to gang with).  Remember that from the point of view of raids in WoW, Guild Wars consists of nothing but a bunch of PvP battlegrounds and the entire content ouside the cities is basically instances.  They just cut out the rest of the PvE experience.  But if someone is online, you can meet up in the same city instance and group up to go run a PvE instance since there is free transfer between hub instances.</p>
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		<title>By: Julian</title>
		<link>http://www.killtenrats.com/2009/08/05/a-case-for-massively/comment-page-1/#comment-32836</link>
		<dc:creator>Julian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Aug 2009 15:23:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.killtenrats.com/?p=4495#comment-32836</guid>
		<description>Rav, I think defining the genre classically as we have been doing with &quot;FPS&quot; for example gets muddy when it comes to MMOs because of their natural borrowing from many other genres.

Even the traditional definitions of classical genres, with the possible exception of &quot;FPS&quot;, are not really 100% comprehensive definitions or acronyms.

RTS. Is it top-down? First person? Many or few units to be controlled? 
Platformer? Is it 2D or 3D? Does it include combat via skills or simple physical collisions between sprites/objects? Does it it include some sort of character customization?

It&#039;s an interesting exercise, but in the end it&#039;s purely semantics. No acronym or genre definition can completely encapsulate the nature of a game or a genre. Not even &quot;Board Games&quot; or &quot;Card games&quot; - Blackjack is after all completely different from M:TG and they&#039;re both quite technically &quot;Card Games&quot; if you wanna get gritty.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rav, I think defining the genre classically as we have been doing with &#8220;FPS&#8221; for example gets muddy when it comes to MMOs because of their natural borrowing from many other genres.</p>
<p>Even the traditional definitions of classical genres, with the possible exception of &#8220;FPS&#8221;, are not really 100% comprehensive definitions or acronyms.</p>
<p>RTS. Is it top-down? First person? Many or few units to be controlled?<br />
Platformer? Is it 2D or 3D? Does it include combat via skills or simple physical collisions between sprites/objects? Does it it include some sort of character customization?</p>
<p>It&#8217;s an interesting exercise, but in the end it&#8217;s purely semantics. No acronym or genre definition can completely encapsulate the nature of a game or a genre. Not even &#8220;Board Games&#8221; or &#8220;Card games&#8221; &#8211; Blackjack is after all completely different from M:TG and they&#8217;re both quite technically &#8220;Card Games&#8221; if you wanna get gritty.</p>
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