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	<title>Comments on: Bet or Change Your Mind</title>
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	<link>http://www.killtenrats.com/2010/01/31/bet-or-change-your-mind/</link>
	<description>a group of adventurers on an epic quest</description>
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		<title>By: Zubon</title>
		<link>http://www.killtenrats.com/2010/01/31/bet-or-change-your-mind/comment-page-/#comment-37060</link>
		<dc:creator>Zubon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Feb 2010 12:21:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.killtenrats.com/?p=5855#comment-37060</guid>
		<description>Dr. Seuss?  That sounds like Horton.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dr. Seuss?  That sounds like Horton.</p>
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		<title>By: axhed</title>
		<link>http://www.killtenrats.com/2010/01/31/bet-or-change-your-mind/comment-page-/#comment-37057</link>
		<dc:creator>axhed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Feb 2010 02:40:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.killtenrats.com/?p=5855#comment-37057</guid>
		<description>or summarized by lewis carrol: 

say what you mean and mean what you say.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>or summarized by lewis carrol: </p>
<p>say what you mean and mean what you say.</p>
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		<title>By: Zubon</title>
		<link>http://www.killtenrats.com/2010/01/31/bet-or-change-your-mind/comment-page-1/#comment-37040</link>
		<dc:creator>Zubon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Feb 2010 02:09:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.killtenrats.com/?p=5855#comment-37040</guid>
		<description>Your warrior spirit may have gotten away from you again.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your warrior spirit may have gotten away from you again.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian 'Psychochild' Green</title>
		<link>http://www.killtenrats.com/2010/01/31/bet-or-change-your-mind/comment-page-1/#comment-37022</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian 'Psychochild' Green</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Feb 2010 09:21:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.killtenrats.com/?p=5855#comment-37022</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;You’re selling proxies short.&lt;/i&gt;

No, I just know too much and know that peak user figures are a terrible measurement of the number of people playing a game.  If 5 people are on during prime time instead of early morning because an Australian guild left the game, that doesn&#039;t mean the game has grown.  Lies, damned lies, and statistics.

&lt;i&gt;do you let them drive, ride in cars, or walk near roads?&lt;/i&gt;

I don&#039;t &quot;let&quot; them do anything.  They&#039;re autonomous people who make their own decisions, which means they may take risks they choose.  I take risks with my own life, true, but that&#039;s because the opportunity costs for never leaving home home (where, really, it&#039;s not 100% safe) are too great.  Anyway, there&#039;s a world of difference between &quot;Hey, let&#039;s drive to the store allowing that we might get side-swiped by an semi,&quot; and &quot;Hey, point this loaded gun at your head and pull the trigger.  I know the chamber is empty because I just checked.&quot;  I&#039;ll leave it as an exercise to the reader why those are different.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>You’re selling proxies short.</i></p>
<p>No, I just know too much and know that peak user figures are a terrible measurement of the number of people playing a game.  If 5 people are on during prime time instead of early morning because an Australian guild left the game, that doesn&#8217;t mean the game has grown.  Lies, damned lies, and statistics.</p>
<p><i>do you let them drive, ride in cars, or walk near roads?</i></p>
<p>I don&#8217;t &#8220;let&#8221; them do anything.  They&#8217;re autonomous people who make their own decisions, which means they may take risks they choose.  I take risks with my own life, true, but that&#8217;s because the opportunity costs for never leaving home home (where, really, it&#8217;s not 100% safe) are too great.  Anyway, there&#8217;s a world of difference between &#8220;Hey, let&#8217;s drive to the store allowing that we might get side-swiped by an semi,&#8221; and &#8220;Hey, point this loaded gun at your head and pull the trigger.  I know the chamber is empty because I just checked.&#8221;  I&#8217;ll leave it as an exercise to the reader why those are different.</p>
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		<title>By: Katherine</title>
		<link>http://www.killtenrats.com/2010/01/31/bet-or-change-your-mind/comment-page-1/#comment-37016</link>
		<dc:creator>Katherine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Feb 2010 03:08:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.killtenrats.com/?p=5855#comment-37016</guid>
		<description>Anytime rich men make statements in confidence at me with no actual evidence I will use your &quot;bet or change your mind&quot; post instead of arguing in futility :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anytime rich men make statements in confidence at me with no actual evidence I will use your &#8220;bet or change your mind&#8221; post instead of arguing in futility :)</p>
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		<title>By: coubo</title>
		<link>http://www.killtenrats.com/2010/01/31/bet-or-change-your-mind/comment-page-1/#comment-36994</link>
		<dc:creator>coubo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Feb 2010 12:40:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.killtenrats.com/?p=5855#comment-36994</guid>
		<description>the point about risk aversion is valid. I believe event X will occur at 50% probability then there is 0 profit to bet $1 on it. On average I will end up with $1 and worse case I have 0. 
People will bet if they think they are making substantial profit in the bet, that compensate them for the risk. I think most people starts to be willing to bet with 1-on-1 odds when they are between 70% and 80% sure of something, meaning they make a ~50% average profit. 
Also, I noticed people are easily more adverse to A-to-1 bet because they will gain little most of the time but loose a lot if things don&#039;t go their way. Conversely, people like lotery where they are likely to loose a little but have a very little chance to win a lot. This is a documented psychological pattern (I&#039;m too lazy to find the reference). You would say it&#039;s not rational but that&#039;s how people are :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>the point about risk aversion is valid. I believe event X will occur at 50% probability then there is 0 profit to bet $1 on it. On average I will end up with $1 and worse case I have 0.<br />
People will bet if they think they are making substantial profit in the bet, that compensate them for the risk. I think most people starts to be willing to bet with 1-on-1 odds when they are between 70% and 80% sure of something, meaning they make a ~50% average profit.<br />
Also, I noticed people are easily more adverse to A-to-1 bet because they will gain little most of the time but loose a lot if things don&#8217;t go their way. Conversely, people like lotery where they are likely to loose a little but have a very little chance to win a lot. This is a documented psychological pattern (I&#8217;m too lazy to find the reference). You would say it&#8217;s not rational but that&#8217;s how people are :)</p>
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		<title>By: Zubon</title>
		<link>http://www.killtenrats.com/2010/01/31/bet-or-change-your-mind/comment-page-1/#comment-36993</link>
		<dc:creator>Zubon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Feb 2010 12:33:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.killtenrats.com/?p=5855#comment-36993</guid>
		<description>You&#039;re selling proxies short.  Looking at online users at peak times &lt;em&gt;reduces&lt;/em&gt; uncertainty.  Why?  If you&#039;re not even going that far, you really are just speculating and going with &quot;everyone I know...&quot; which usually means &quot;this one guy I know...&quot;  You&#039;ve taken a step that moves you away from meaningless noise and condemned it for not moving to a Platonic ideal of knowledge.  That&#039;s bad.

Concerning your loved ones: do you let them drive, ride in cars, or walk near roads?  There is a 1 in 10,000 chance per year that they will die in a crash.  You are 99.99% certain that they will live through the year.  You would not gamble their lives on a 110% certainty, yet you consistently gamble yours and theirs below 100%.  Why?  (My guess: at some point, you act on less than perfect information, as people seem to be objecting to.  Sara thinks there are too many variables to talk about whether WoW will gain or lose subscribers this year, but Sara is probably willing to bet far more than $20 on a riskier question with more variables via things we call &quot;weddings&quot; or &quot;moving for a new job.&quot;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;re selling proxies short.  Looking at online users at peak times <em>reduces</em> uncertainty.  Why?  If you&#8217;re not even going that far, you really are just speculating and going with &#8220;everyone I know&#8230;&#8221; which usually means &#8220;this one guy I know&#8230;&#8221;  You&#8217;ve taken a step that moves you away from meaningless noise and condemned it for not moving to a Platonic ideal of knowledge.  That&#8217;s bad.</p>
<p>Concerning your loved ones: do you let them drive, ride in cars, or walk near roads?  There is a 1 in 10,000 chance per year that they will die in a crash.  You are 99.99% certain that they will live through the year.  You would not gamble their lives on a 110% certainty, yet you consistently gamble yours and theirs below 100%.  Why?  (My guess: at some point, you act on less than perfect information, as people seem to be objecting to.  Sara thinks there are too many variables to talk about whether WoW will gain or lose subscribers this year, but Sara is probably willing to bet far more than $20 on a riskier question with more variables via things we call &#8220;weddings&#8221; or &#8220;moving for a new job.&#8221;)</p>
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		<title>By: Brian 'Psychochild' Green</title>
		<link>http://www.killtenrats.com/2010/01/31/bet-or-change-your-mind/comment-page-1/#comment-36990</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian 'Psychochild' Green</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Feb 2010 09:40:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.killtenrats.com/?p=5855#comment-36990</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;I’m hoping you’re not calling me an idiot again...&lt;/i&gt;

No, actually I think you&#039;re doing the opposite: being too intellectual for your own good.  You&#039;re trying to show a justification for saying, &quot;Put up or shut up,&quot; and it&#039;s falling a bit flat.  As I said, some people do create more noise than is worth.  These people I ignore.

As for the &quot;life of a loved one&quot; extreme wager, my point was that sometimes some things are too dear to bet on; I figured that was one thing that most people would agree with.  Depending on my existing financial situation, $20 would be too much for me to bet on something I&#039;m really sure about (2009 was a terrible year for contract work).  Just because I was willing to wager $20 on something a few years ago but not today doesn&#039;t mean I believe the previous thing any more strongly.

In the update, Zubon wrote:
&lt;i&gt;If your beliefs will never be testable, as I said, you are just making noise....&lt;/i&gt;

This is the point I strongly disagree with.  I think an opinion such as, &quot;I think &lt;i&gt;World of Warcraft&lt;/i&gt; is losing subscribers.&quot; is interesting even if it&#039;s not verifiable by most people.  Without data that Blizzard doesn&#039;t share, we can&#039;t show this conclusively.  Sure, we can approximate by looking at &quot;peak times&quot;, but you&#039;re just adding uncertainty.  

Ultimately, I think your point is that people do a terrible job of separating out fact from opinion, and I agree with that.  I&#039;ve been accused of passing off my opinion as fact before, usually by posing as an authority.  But, I think you&#039;re going a bit too far here in that you&#039;re essentially saying opinion is useless.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>I’m hoping you’re not calling me an idiot again&#8230;</i></p>
<p>No, actually I think you&#8217;re doing the opposite: being too intellectual for your own good.  You&#8217;re trying to show a justification for saying, &#8220;Put up or shut up,&#8221; and it&#8217;s falling a bit flat.  As I said, some people do create more noise than is worth.  These people I ignore.</p>
<p>As for the &#8220;life of a loved one&#8221; extreme wager, my point was that sometimes some things are too dear to bet on; I figured that was one thing that most people would agree with.  Depending on my existing financial situation, $20 would be too much for me to bet on something I&#8217;m really sure about (2009 was a terrible year for contract work).  Just because I was willing to wager $20 on something a few years ago but not today doesn&#8217;t mean I believe the previous thing any more strongly.</p>
<p>In the update, Zubon wrote:<br />
<i>If your beliefs will never be testable, as I said, you are just making noise&#8230;.</i></p>
<p>This is the point I strongly disagree with.  I think an opinion such as, &#8220;I think <i>World of Warcraft</i> is losing subscribers.&#8221; is interesting even if it&#8217;s not verifiable by most people.  Without data that Blizzard doesn&#8217;t share, we can&#8217;t show this conclusively.  Sure, we can approximate by looking at &#8220;peak times&#8221;, but you&#8217;re just adding uncertainty.  </p>
<p>Ultimately, I think your point is that people do a terrible job of separating out fact from opinion, and I agree with that.  I&#8217;ve been accused of passing off my opinion as fact before, usually by posing as an authority.  But, I think you&#8217;re going a bit too far here in that you&#8217;re essentially saying opinion is useless.</p>
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		<title>By: Zubon</title>
		<link>http://www.killtenrats.com/2010/01/31/bet-or-change-your-mind/comment-page-1/#comment-36988</link>
		<dc:creator>Zubon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Feb 2010 03:28:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.killtenrats.com/?p=5855#comment-36988</guid>
		<description>The update covers most of this.  I&#039;m hoping you&#039;re not calling me an idiot again with the &quot;bet the life of a loved one&quot; thing, because exaggerating the post past the point of stupidity is not a generous interpretation.

On proving a negative: of course we do that all the time.  We have a mention of Bayesian updating above, and absence of evidence really is evidence of absence (of varying strength).  If your theory predicts that X should be there, and it is not, that is evidence against your theory.  Most of us are pretty confident on the question of whether werewolves exist, even without a deductive proof on the matter.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The update covers most of this.  I&#8217;m hoping you&#8217;re not calling me an idiot again with the &#8220;bet the life of a loved one&#8221; thing, because exaggerating the post past the point of stupidity is not a generous interpretation.</p>
<p>On proving a negative: of course we do that all the time.  We have a mention of Bayesian updating above, and absence of evidence really is evidence of absence (of varying strength).  If your theory predicts that X should be there, and it is not, that is evidence against your theory.  Most of us are pretty confident on the question of whether werewolves exist, even without a deductive proof on the matter.</p>
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		<title>By: Tesh</title>
		<link>http://www.killtenrats.com/2010/01/31/bet-or-change-your-mind/comment-page-1/#comment-36986</link>
		<dc:creator>Tesh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Feb 2010 02:35:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.killtenrats.com/?p=5855#comment-36986</guid>
		<description>Many of my assertions are based on &quot;what if&quot; theories that won&#039;t ever be tested.  There&#039;s little point in betting on something that isn&#039;t testable or won&#039;t be tested for whatever reason.  Even if I cared to gamble.  *shrug*</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Many of my assertions are based on &#8220;what if&#8221; theories that won&#8217;t ever be tested.  There&#8217;s little point in betting on something that isn&#8217;t testable or won&#8217;t be tested for whatever reason.  Even if I cared to gamble.  *shrug*</p>
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