Anyway, on point. I think I agree re the difference between a grind and fun. It’s all about whether you can make consistent, noticeable progress. Leveling is hardly considered a grind in MMOs that utilize questing. While the quests themselves might be repetitive fed-ex/kill x type quests, few people complain about a “level grind” like they did in EQ1 or FF11 (or any Korean MMO) – now it’s more a question of having more varied content.

Now we hear about grinds when game systems feel arbitrary (i.e. the one lotro slayer deed in a region without a dedicated lair for that mob type), or completely random (i.e. lotro legendary weapon system). Random works when trying to keep world locations feel random, but doesn’t work when a system is dedicated to character advancement.

In all things character advancement related, players will not see something as a grind when they can make consistent progress towards some visible end-state.

A better example I thought of later was the (pre vamp) Lonelands bog guardian things… the things that look like balls on four sticks.

I think, however, that if the “noise” is necessary for other grinding, then the act of “plowing through” different mobs can be like fireworks. Take your LotRO example…for example. If you went into an area SPECIFICALLY to kill wargs, and had to wade through other mobs to get JUST the wargs, it could be frustrating. But if you ALSO needed to (or kept in mind the achievements which required you to) kill the mobs around those wargs, you’ve entered into a “meta-grind”. By simply plowing through different mobs, achieving achievements or completing quests, one can get a real sense of accomplishment while ALSO feeling that there wasn’t a lot of effort (i.e. running here and there to find the singular mob parts that you need for a single result).