[GW2] Last Stand and Delivery

The Living Story sun is setting on Southsun. Canach has been apprehended. Next week contracts will be saved and karka queens will be killed. Then off to the revelry of Dragon Bash to forget all the issues remaining settlers will have to face. This portion of the Living Story was actually pretty good. There are a lot of things going on with the story throughout the island. It’s telling was hit or miss.

The story speaks of Canach, returned from the Molten Alliance “war” where he fought with the Pact against the enemy. He has a standing vendetta against the Consortium, and he feels the best thing to do is free the bonded refugees on Southsun Cove from their contracts of servitude. The best way to do this, of course, is to rile up the local, dangerous wildlife to attack everybody, settler refugees included. Tempers rise and settlers and the Consortium’s goons start to skirmish themselves.

Lionguard Inspector Kiel is tasked with trying to keep the peace across the island, which is in Lion’s Arch interest to keep trade and money flowing. She hunts down Canach with the use of scientific sampling and good detective work, and the players take him down. Kiel crates up Canach, guild bounty style, and ships him off to Lion’s Arch. Good story. Good characters. A nice little Living Story vignette.

How I pieced this story together is another thing. It took two fiction posts by ArenaNet, NPC discussion, following an Kiel across the island, a developer forum post, and a letter from Kiel telling me they found Canach. It’s all over the place. It also ends so quickly that I was left wondering where I could go from there.

I’ve already commented on gathering Southsun samples as a pseudo-quest, but unlike a quest where something is turned in for finality, I didn’t notice a follow up. Perhaps now Researcher Levvi has different text talking about how I helped. Perhaps all the follow up was wrapped in to the Fervid Censer reward item’s text “Canach used this device to spread his wildlife-aggravating toxins on Southsun Cove”, which just adds to another easily missed story delivery means.

The worst bump, in my opinion, were the achievements. All of the achievements are dumped at the first release of the Secret of Southsun. The whole story was spoiled by simply scrolling over future achievements, and it was also really confusing to foresee content without knowing when it would drop. For example, we’re still waiting to kill the karka queen and load the contracts, but players wouldn’t know that on their own. Apparently it’s coming out next week.

It’s easy to complain. However, I really did enjoy my time on Southsun Cove. I really like the story once I pieced it all together. I liked the events that were added. The themes of aggravated conflict between all parties were really carried well through the events. I liked Crab Toss once I was able to play without ultra-lag. I made some really good memories this time around on Southsun, and I have a few neat souvenirs for these updates. For the accelerated time frame that Living Story team was under, I feel they squeezed some good stuff out of Father Time.

I just hope that ArenaNet standardizes story delivery throughout the company. They made their own bed by making Guild Wars 2 quest-less (even though the Personal Story is pretty much a big, long “quest”). Between achievements, items, mail, NPC discussion, cut scenes, post cut scene discussion, blog posts, event “cut scenes”, and dev posts on the forums, it is getting laborious to receive a complete story.


25 thoughts on “[GW2] Last Stand and Delivery”

  1. I wouldn’t mind if ANet used more instancing for the story. As someone who missed out on the Karka weekend I had no idea who Canach was or why he wanted his insane revenge. The stories on the website helped, but I have always been a proponent of telling all key lore points about a game in the game. One of the biggest disappointments in WoW was when the emerald dream issues that had been hinted at since the beginning of the game got solved in a book and the players never even got to participate in any meaningful way.

    Back to my original thought, by shifting the personal story to instances they could approach the stories the same way that skyrim dungeons work. They could have all that you need to know in journals scattered through the instance that open up like elder scrolls books. The instances would direct players and let ANet make the players see the villainy of their enemy while the journals would let us get inside his head.

    1. You didn’t miss a thing, Canach wasn’t introduced before. We’re on the same wagon here – he’s just so obviously dropped into middle of things, like it’s natural. It is not. I hate the way they unravel their stories. There is not much to unravel at first place. It took Ravious 5 lines of text to write it all. I wish they would make their stories straight, and save those secretive narration for more digging lore stuff. But to dig for things that should be obvious? Nah. As Ravious wrote “It’s easy to complain” :P

      1. @jc SadOne

        You are tottally wrong, Canach was introduced before.

        Canach first appearance was as a character from Lost Shores. Lost shores, Flame and Frost, The Secret of Souhtsun and Last Stand at Southsun are diferent chapters from the same one full year story.

        1. This doesn’t help players who started playing after Lost Shores, or missed the event

          or just forgot everything about Lost Shores because there was like one memorable character.

        2. Is he? My bad then. Well – it doesn’t say anything good about me and game at the same time :P. You see – I like lore, I like it a lot. I remember a lot of useless crap from GW1 (and other games). So really, it’s my bad that I’ve missed him. And at the same time – bravo Anet for making another so memorable character, that I couldn’t care less. In my favorite game on top of that – and that also says something…
          Thinking about this makes me sad :(

        3. @jcSadOne

          As I wrote bellow, Anet need find a better way to send us the story. I think more cutscenes will help. Canach is a very interesting character, but get all pieces together from Loat Shores to Last Stand is not easy.


          That is the main problem with the living story concept: some players will lost temporary content. However, I continue to say it is better than have a static world where nothing changes and where NPC will forever say how the Lich King is a menace. Take note that aparently AoC too will start to experiment with temporary content, so maybe a trend is starting to arise.

          There are few options for who lost some living story events. You can make a google search or look at GW2 wikia or see some youtube videos. Maybe Anet can add, in the future, a cutscene or other way to retell what happened before (“previously in the living story”).

          When Lost Shores was live, we had to find and capture Canach, that was the culprit for the karka attack to LA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRVb00DTgZU). After talk to a lot of NPC all over the world, we found Canach hiding at a tabern in a human village. I remember a lot of players inside that room waiting for the NPC spawn and everyone attacking Canach at same time. But at the end of the Lost Shores he escaped the Lionguard while the players fought the Ancient Karka (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHq50wtv0vY).

          That Ancient Karka event was extremelly laggy, but too was epic (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VUFTpEXxJI), too many players killed by karka rolls that we had sometimes a carpet of dead players . I just hope the Queen Karka be too epic, but less laggy.

  2. A lot of interest is shown for the lore of gw2, and one might even say gw1. I just wish there is a storybook feature where we can go to past prominent landmarks and collect pages (much like ebonhawke). Hence, returning players whom might have missed a few episode of living stories, can “rewatch” them and get a feel on the current events ingame rather than having to scour through various blogs and ingame dialogs and whatnots.

  3. I couldn’t agree more with you Ravious. This has also been my main complaint since the first episode of the Living Story saga (Flame & Frost): inadequate means of providing crucial information. I’m a lore fan so I love reading stuff and talking to NPCs. Hence I absolutely love finding little bits and pieces of the story scattered around in recovered items’ inscriptions, decoded audio logs, or journals, notes and minutes of Consortium meetings. And I also love reading background stories about the main characters, like Braham and Roxx. But when background becomes an indispensable and prerequisite part of the foreground… then I seriously start raising eyebrows. The Secret World’s out-of-the-game means of delivering information pertaining to (in-game) quests is one thing, and done brilliantly in my opinion. Guild Wars 2 is not trying to adopt this design, I believe. Hence I consider the way it stands now as a serious flaw on their part.
    As much as I liked the story too, I can not but feel detached from it whenever I talk to one of the NPCs and wonder where I should go to next – resolving to the internet for walkthroughs or developers’ diaries in order to proceed. If Anet elaborates on this further in the future, with more dialogue options and written evidence/clues for the adventuring players, these stories will start to fell truly Living.

  4. @thevallaint

    They are learning how to do it. So, give them time. Since the first episode of living story, that was Lost Shores* (and not FnF), they advanced a lot. Lost Shores had that one time events and an Ancient Karka with a big lag. However, Ancient Karka was fun, too many players died from karka rolls and that was epic. Let’s hope that Queen Karka be other epic and fun battle, but with less lag.

    They stoped to make one time event and at Fnf, they made a group dungeons, and people made an issue that they had not a solo dungeon. This time, they made an instance with solo and group modes. Better than make one time event for capture Carnach. But people aparently wanted a dungeon and not an instance, whatever new game mechanics (mines) that instance had. Players noted that instance was compelted at a few minutes… or less.

    The Queen Karka event will be a permanent dynamic event after teh living story end, so that is a lesson they learned: give us more permanent changes.and more DE.

    IMHO, the lessons they need learn from this Southsun event is make that achievements with no spoilers (they can use ?????, like we saw at other events) and give us solo and group dungeons, not instances. They need a better way to communicate the story to players, texts in the official site don’t work, they need make cutscenes..

    I know that create dungeons and cutscenes demand time, so I don’t think we see them at the next 2-3 living stories (well, not if they were not creating them for some time now). But if they want create a standard for the diferent teams create living stories, the lessons they need learn from Southsun are::

    1- no spoilers in the achievements (use ???????? and the achievement text)
    2- solo and group dungeons, not instances;
    3- more cutscenes explaining the story, a lot of that text need go to cutscenes.

    * take note that some characters from this story are the same characters from Lost Shores, so we can consider that the first try Anet made for have a living story was the Lost Shores event; after that they decided to name that kind of events “living story”, maybe because they do’nt want to confound them with the festival events (halloween, xmas, dragon).

    1. Agree.
      I think there are some lessons they need to learn from longer period of time. I don’t know did You played GW1 or not. Personally I think that GW1 had a lot better stories, but as I said – it’s probably personal. What is not, it’s one little quirk of narration – Kormir in GW1 NF or Trahearne in GW2 story (or Rurik or Togo etc.). While Kormir was a lot better written character, both share same annoyance. They are center piece of the story, yet, from players perspective, we – gamers do all the work and they only take credit. From both lore and game point of view – Kormir is way superior. She was with us in good times and bad. She lead us to battle (not like Trahearne “You lead the way, I’ll spawn some minions with my awesome sword”), she meet and greet characters from different campaigns, lost her eyes for the cause etc. But still, from players view – she was annoyance running around us in missions. But Trahearne? Fills same role, but with far inferior quality, backbone etc. He’s the emo-tormented type of dude, that is hard to like, and really not rewarding for trying to understand. Mainly because,unlike Kormir he have a really weak diluted back story. Kormir did a lot of things, and we heard about dozen more she did, but we didn’t witness. Trahearne haven’t done much and we only heard that he did “something in Orr”. Even as Sylvari, who meet him before other races – he’s uninspiring dude, whose shown to us as someone really important in the way, we couldn’t care less.
      Well, that was off topic. But it marks some Anet flaw in story telling. They create this hollow characters add to them some “epic qualities”… and leave them to clash with titans. I’m not saying that Master Togo should be able to stand in battle with eye-gaze with Gandalf. But hey – if every time I see Trahearne or Rurik in mission and I think “oh gush, not again”, it’s probably something wrong.

      About 1 – agree. More than that – I don’t think every single activity should be caged in achievement. But probably it’s coincidence this time.
      About 2 – agree agree :P. I really liked Molten Facility – while I find fight with Canach interesting, it should be the grand finale of sneak and hide in shadows type of mission. That would be cool, but hey – it’s just me ;)
      About 3 – yes yes and yes. Actually I’m shocked about the narration. Story is plain is simple. And is delivered like some kind of super hush hush theory in game. I know (and understand) that Anet want to implement their story into world, not sell it through cutscenes, but it isn’t working.It won’t work this way – they had to intensify all the dialogues and quirks 100 times and then it would look like pathetic joke not narration. So yeah – good idea, but won’t work. Lesson learned, I hope they will find better way to do it next time.

      About Living Story – I was sure they were saying about it before game release. I may be wrong, but I was sure it was planned. Well – not exactly what we have now, Anet plans were more exuberant, but after NCsoft begun to administer the money… well. 15 minutes gameplay worth of updates, called “Living” “Story” is all we can hope for I think :(

  5. @jcSadOne

    I played GW1 for some time, so I hate Kormir more than I hate Trahearne, maybe because Trahearne not ascended to god status. We need consider Trahearne is a sage made general, a role he never wanted, and he behaves from start to end as a “sage”: too much talk and few action.

    Take note that GW1 and GW2 have diferent systems and that make the implementation of stories harder. GW1 is HEAVY instanced, so they can change everything from pre-searing to post-searing. With relation to implementation of living story, remember that the best plans don’t survive to implementation, so I am not sure the problem come from NCSoft, the problem is that Anet is still testing how things will work at a not so much instanced game.

    Anet problably want make something so memorable how they made in GW1, but GW2 is a diferent game environment and less instanced. We are just seeing a learning process, form the Lost Shores to Last Stand, while Anet make mistakes trying create a lving world. Anet have diferent teams working at diferent episodes for the living story, so a diference of quality of content is inevitable. While they don’t create a “standard for each living world team follow, we will see the “Spring” team making content that is diferent quality from the “Summer” team. However, IMHO they moved the GW1 team to GW2 (so, GW1 now is at automatic mode) and maybe we see some diference when developers with more experience at how to tell stories start to produce content.

    1. Agree on most things :P
      About Kormir and Trahearne – de gustibus non disputandum est, but I still can’t find good points in the way sylvari is written. Agree – Trahearne is sage, forced to become field general. What a great opportunity to tell amazing tale of forging character, of overcoming obstacles, of embracing the things we don’t want, but we need. Yep – opportunity it was, wasted one, wasted like good ‘ol norn in dwarven brewery. With Kormir – the narration fell short, but story was holding itself well. With Trahearne? My vote is on “no”. Loud, clear no. But as we established – it’s probably a matter of taste. And yeah – I also hate Kormir for the ascension XD. I felt cheated right after I killed Abbadon, oh how cheated I felt… XD

      About GW2 not being GW1 – I know. Personally I prefer instanced GW1 style over GW2 open world. Slightly, but yeah – de gustibus non disputandum est! XD
      I’m amazed with idea, that Orr is changing. With updates they changed animations and some textures of undeads and I wonder do they really change, or is it upgrading existing world. Because if they are really changing, fading after Zaithans death, it’s amazing. And problematic at the same time – some parts of Orr (Arah) need to be frozen in time. Even if the land of Orr really is blooming again.

      About problems coming from NCsoft – there are lots and lots of rumors now. Long story short is, that all money that GW2 made by gemstore, didn’t get back to Anet, because it was moved by NCsoft from GW2 into Aion maintenance and WildStar production. If You look closely to what Anet promised and what was delivered, You can notice some curious things. Like everything in fractals & ascended gear is heavily related to crystal desert, Glint and ascension & infusion from GW1. Reading between the lines in Anet blog (especially before release) and talking with Priory guys close to map end (from crystal desert side) we can find hints about upcoming events, that would open desert for us. My conspiracy theory is, that Anet had to act with or without additional income. They couldn’t afford pulling of whole crystal desert update, so they’ve scrapped it and what was ready (some skins, ascended gear, fractals) was pushed into the game. Actually fractals and whole disconnected from reality mists are covering really well for the fact, that none of this stuff had any sense when it was presented to players. And at least one fractal (the underwater one) looks similar to stuff from GW1 crystal desert, taking into account that in 250 years between GW1 and GW2, crystal desert was flooded. So if I am right (and I do believe I am, even if I’m horribly wrong XD ), at least one of the fractals is ripped part of existing GW1 transition into GW2 map. On top of that – why living story is so modest, when Anet started really big? All updates before F&F singlehanded crush both arcs that was released till now. And now, when we know that GW2 gem store really took off and made some money – it’s even more doubtful, that Anet is loosing momentum by stupidity or laziness. I don’t believe in that. I don’t want to make NCsoft greedy monster (not like EA XD), but I’m telling how it looks from the place I stand XD.

      But hey – box expansion is coming. If I’m right, then probably NCsoft noticed that they crossed the line. GW2 probably will have to fight really hard to recover what is lost (PvP is nearly dead, WvW lost vigor and even PvE playerbase shrinked to the level, that flaws of world design starts to show – hard to do events in Orr, when You’re only one around), but it’s possible. Especially with box expansion. I just wish, they didn’t let this to happen :(

      1. Ok, some points about your “rumors” and “conspiracy theories”. Everything you show as evidency for that “rumors” is easier to explain if you assume “plans fail when implemented”, so it is prudent to have a plan B, C and D and if you haven’t them, improvise. Everyone you see from Lost Shores to Last Stand is just that, they tryed the Lost Shores way (halloween and Lost Shores had ONE TIME events that some players – not all players, but a considerable number – said were a fail) and since they are trying to develop a better way to get the living story running.

        Fractals and ascended gear happened because players don’t liked and don’t understood GW2 concept of “endgame”: endgame is all Tyria and not a raid dungeon. So, Anet had to come with a fast fix for it (not a good fix anyway). So, IMHO you can blame the players for it and don’t need blame NCSoft.

        About the fractal stuff being Crystal Desert “flooded”… not sure about it and looking at the map I can see some regions that they can develop before need go to Crystal Desert.

        Can you see that two zones gap in the center of map? They are the tengu’s city and starting zone. Now, we know that tengu were to be a starting race, but they got scraped out. But if they will start to make expansions or maybe updates that will add new zones, IMHO they will start with that two zones, because they have some material done for them. About Crsytal Desert, there are no clue before the game launch about Anet developing that zone while there are a lot of material done for tengu from before the launch.

        And there are other zones they need introduce if they want follow a “living story”. That jungle north is a good candidate for an expanison because is there the White Mantle is located. White Mantle is one of the evil factions players are fighting, Anet is just not explicit about it because everyone knows White Mantle are bad guys from GW1, but that lady they introduced last living story is all about Shining Blade versus White Mantle. In conclusion, they have a lot of closer zones where they can expand the game and Crystal Desert is problably the last on in Anet list for an expansion.

        About the current story being modest while FnF was big, remember they have diferent teams working at these content, so it is normal diferent teams have diferent visions about how to make things. Take note too that the current event will end with the Karka Queen, that I hope be epic like the Ancient Karka.

        With realation to GW2 “have to fight really hard to recover what is lost” and “PvP is nearly dead, WvW lost vigor and even PvE playerbase shrinked to the level”, you need look at the Gartner Hype Cycle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gartner_Hype_Cycle.svg), because it works for ALL MMO launched.

        GW2 had the phases of “Peak of Inflated Expectations” and “Trough of Disillusionment”. Currently GW2 is at “Slope of Enlightenment” phase: spvp is moving to be an e-sport with the expectator mode (something the devs don’t had imaginated when the game was launched, they never talked about e-sport before the launch, some players after the launch give the idea), WvW have a lot more vigor now they implemented changes (be real, a chest each wvw rank, now we will see a lot more queue for wvw maps) and I see one or other new player in my guild, so playerbase is not shrinking how some haters say.

        At this “Slope of Enlightenment” phase we will see GW2 playerbase growth slowlly, and no one know where will be the “Plateau of Productivity”. But take note thatt GW2 launch at China is coming and playerbase will give a jump with the chinese servers. That GW2 is not shrinking is a sure thing, can you point other MMO company that is hiring more developers?

        About NCSoft moving the money from GW2 “into Aion maintenance and WildStar production”, take a long breath and think clearly. NCSoft is not stupid and they will not kill the golden eggs goose. Aion is making money in Asia, so it don’t need GW2 money, and WildStar is the new players “shinny”, but I can note it is a sci-fi setting, that are not very good for MMO, and NCSoft know it.

        If I was to bet about NCSoft interfering in Anet, my bet was to be NCSoft saying to Anet use the money for create a new expansion for make more huge pilles of money, while Anet answer that prefer use the money for perfect the game mechainics for now and develop how to make the living story better, because only when they get the things working better they will want move part of the team for create the expansion.

        I know that a lot of people hate NCSoft because they closed CoX. And no one can understand why they closed CoX when the game was giving profit. My guess is that they had other reasons that forced them to close CoX. Take note that SOE closed SWG before the launch of TOR (contractual reasons?) and the CoX was closed after DCUO was launched and I saw a lot of players creating DC characters in CoX… just add some DC lawyers to the process and it is easy see why NCSoft closed CoX…

        1. Agree with what You are saying, just one flaw in Your logic. Assuming You are right (and I do agree about need to improvise to fix things – it backs my theory :P, and I do agree that lot of those fixes were rather miss than hit ) we have simple scheme. There is problem and no planned solution. What chances do You think there are, that Anet is so arrogant, that they didn’t prepare plan B? Fixes that were presented by Anet fills the role “we need fix, but don’t have much time or money”. You don’t deliver such fixes if You do have additional money or it fits into your budget. That leads me again – whatever happened, fixes looks really cheap. Don’t get me wrong – they are great, they work, but mostly – they look like improvised thing from as low resources as it’s possible. And note that other stuff is unaffected by this – they still update weapons/armors miniature database for example. Totally agree with what You wrote, I just have different interpretation of facts, and heh – I still need to be provided with something significant to change my mind. At the moment – I can’t see anything, but I see a lot of stuff to back my thoughts.
          Yeah – I know about Dominion of Winds, whole racial wars between Tengu and people in Cantha, the runaway etc. I don’t think the plans were scrapped, they were far shoot from beginning – I still believe this part is going as they’ve planned. Whole story with Tengu solitude attitude works well. As far as I know, that should be presented with box expansion – or just the rumors said it should. Same with Kodan and Far Shivearpeaks region. If You look – there is something that could be a big ship on map – maybe a Kodan starting city, with lot of free space around, to make another low lvl zone for starters? But as I said – just rumors, how could I know? About crystal desert – don’t tell me there are no hints :D. Read second book, talk with Priory, read old Anet posts. I don’t say Crystal Desert was supposed to be another Southsun Cove, but some indications are there. Or maybe they planned to make this a linking content between what we have and expansion that will took us to lands we know from Nightfall. I don’t know – but I’m almost certain that ascended gear was pushed out of whatever plans they had into fractals – the design match, ideas, names, ideology. Everything is 1 to 1 match with GW1 Prophecies Crystal Desert, with no real link to Mists and the FotM. So I agree with You, that the Fractals were fast fix. About the fractal stuff being Crystal Desert “flooded” – in those 250 years Palawa Yoko rose to power again, messed with Elona river (that flooded parts of crystal desert) to weaken Princes. There is war now in desert, but it doesn’t concern us now. If You look on underwater fractal, the design match, there is water like in flooded tomb, for sure it’s not underwater construction to begin with. I don’t say it is taken from desert crystal map they were preparing, I just say I believe it is. I can be wrong, sure – but even then, it fits all too well XD. And to think, that is the only fractal looking like it’s blocked from sides, not designed to be small map in first place (sometimes when my textures load messed up, I can see parts of map behind that we can visit)… More than that – as fractals are events lost in space and time, this still can be truth regardless to what they do in the future. But I have to admit it will be strange to run through the place, that is part of fractals at the same time XD.
          About White Mantle – nice concept. Maybe I am wrong, but I thought that War in Kryta, ended with them in terms of army. They still stands behind some assassinations on Queen, but not the major force to battle with. Great for storytelling, but they need to group with someone to bring much of a gamepley content. Not like Flame Legion, that could make a mess without Dredge. And the jungle after all this years is more like a desert now XD. So I don’t say that Crystal Desert should be “next” as in “right after Southsun”, but more like – it was a long range plan, that Anet was working on. And now it will be hard to fix this gap, when they took some most climatic aspects of it. Now it’s only graveyard of some important persona from book (and lore), battleground between Palawa forces and dragon minions and gate to another battle zone – Palawa vs what left from Princes forces. Lots of flash, lack of substance.
          I disagree on FnF being big. I don’t mean the concept. The story was big, not the execution. We had a molten alliance in presence of few rotating events, we had “great” refuge of people – in 15 NPC respawning to do they zombie walk animation etc. I mean – hey, it was war. It was invasion. 2 major cities were in range of fire. Did You felt that? I didn’t. I don’t say it was bad, because it was nice. It was nice mission like string of events, forced to be some living story (and instanced) events, that told us the story. And it was ok, but definitely it wasn’t big. Compared to Karka attack on LA? And I’m not talking about LA battle being live, onetime event. I’m talking about scale. As You said – Anet is learning, it’s a new thing, that’s why I’m giving them benefit of doubt, but FnF was a lot of things, but not big. After Karka attack on LA we know they can do it, so yeah. Again, like with Kormir or Trahaerne – the story behind probably stands for itself, but You can’t say or see it from players perspective. I know it is though. To tell FnF properly, Anet should probably make small expansion – with map below Wayfarer&Diessa, dozens of cinematics, audiolog collecting event as a instanced missions to really recover them – blah blah blah. Impossible, but that would be big. Now it’s interesting, good effort and something new. It is enough for me, but judging from melting playerbase – I’m in minority.
          Gartner Hype Cycle – yeah, I know. I was referring to something different. I don’t know if You play lot of sPvP or not, but considering You wrote “spvp is moving to be an e-sport” You either joking or don’t play PvP. I do at least my daily + 3/5 matches. Or I used to. The problem is, that GW2 gets a lot of shiny stuff with every update – and in 99% it is for PvE. I’m mainly PvE player, but I like my PvP share. That means I like what is being done (in PvE), but at the same time I see perspective of PvP oriented players and I never saw a game that neglected them so much like Anet did in GW2. Except for adding daily, throwing scraps from PvE table (some skins) PvP is abandoned. I’m talking about game changers. 2 new maps, when maps are last thing needed for this community? Joke. Ok, they work (really hard) on balance, but nor the balance, nor the maps are the main issue. The Conquest is, because Conquest is boring. It is, what can I say? It’s fun for short period of time, or as a one of many choices, but as THE thing? It’s NOthing. Listen to community, read forums – biggest, greatest PvP guilds left months ago. Judging by how hard other games are fighting for their PvP community, I don’t have high hopes for them to be back – it’s realistic. Actually PvP is now home for desperate (like me) and newcomers (thank god for that, because without them PvP would be dead cold now). And all they say is the same thing, that players who left said months ago – duels, GvG, whatever that is not Conquest. Duels – Anet won’t give it, because that is not balanced feature (so they stated many times now). How they want to balance this without implementing? And if they trying to do it on their own – great job… 9 months now and no effects to show. And the GvG…. Now it’s only one thing to do in PvP – play Conquest and if You don’t like Conquest, there is no PvP for You. I don’t say Conquest is bad (it certainly is not great), but it’s get old really fast. After 2 months I had more than enough of it. It’s what? 9 months now? And I can see no change – maps aside (and 2 weaker maps in my opinion, but it’s just my opinion – great for zerging, not so much for actual strategic gameplay). And GvG was one of the things, that Anet told us about before game release, it’s something demanded and discussed from day 1. The spectator mode is step in right direction, implemented in pathetically bad way (again, don’t get me wrong – it can be fixed, but it’s few weeks now and I can’t see any change in it nor the will to do it – I can go into specifics, but it’s not interesting if You don’t play PvP much), but yeah – 3rd party tournaments maybe will buy Anet enough time to actually change something in PvP.
          Disagree about e-sport – they were speaking about this, I’m sure because I was hyped and they fell short really fast (I would link to YouTube movie, but it’s deleted from official page). I agree things are moving in right direction, but jokes aside. From GW2 PvP actual state to e-sport there is long, looooong road. One tournament hosted by mmorpg site isn’t much for a game, that was taunted to be e-sport before release. I could count this how many? 3? 5 player hosted tournaments? Maybe I’ll just keep my silence on them – it will be for the best. If You saw mmmorpg event, You know one thing – it’s pain to watch, because with all the flashy effects GW2 is meant to be played, not host as a e-sport. The Conquest rules makes 9 out of 10 matches unworthy of my time, because You know who will win around 1/10 of match time. And this 1 missing game, that will grant amazing return of losing team is still – great game to be playing, but not so great to watch. Better spectator system would help, but not much. Conquest is main problem. Linear scoring, map desing that promotes tanks and spike dmg above all, and few viable strategy for every game, with minor changes in tactics for different maps. That much I know before I saw hosted tournaments, that much I’m sure after I saw them.
          About WvW – much the same story, but WvW is in a lot better state from beginning. The main problem with WvW is that it have no competition now. When the Camelot and tESO will be released, GW2 may have a really big problem. Especially if You took into account fact, that Camelot will be purely RvR/WvW (or whatever it’s called) oriented. My guess? People who are heavily WvW/RvR oriented will go to play Camelot, because well – there their money will go 100% on WvW and not on some livig story or another bug fixes they don’t care about.
          About shrinking playerbase – I don’t care about China. Sure, great – they will bring some money to devs, that means my favorite game will get (maybe) some shoot of adrenaline in new content. I was talking about on-server playerbase. I’m on one of biggest PvE oriented servers in EU and it’s getting hard to find people for events outside of the flavor of the month. Karka train out of the equation, it’s getting really hard to find people for normal events. Sure there are still bunch of guys ready for every dragon, Behemot, Maw and Elemental. While waiting for Behe, there are a lot of guys for Oakheart or Cavetroll. But on my server (once again – one of biggest PvE servers in EU) it’s around of half the bunch, we had month-two ago. So yeah, really the “Slope of Enlightenment” I wished for. I do understand them – I really do. How many times You can do same events over and over again – there is not much to do beside them and You need to relay on bigger number to push things in Orr. And if You want to do anything else? Better have a guild. And my server have a lot of guests from smaller servers (which additionally bump the playerbase), because as I heard – it’s dead empty there on events. So yeah – china will really help us now -_-
          “Take a long breath and think clearly” – I don’t have to :D. It’s in financial rapport of NCsoft :D. I don’t say NCsoft wants to kill best horse in stable. I’m just stating the fact, they miscalculated situation. “If I was to bet…” – yeah, I would love to see that too, but as far as I know, that is not the case. More than that – it looks like Anet was forced to do expansion now, so yeah. So much for ying yang.
          Didn’t played much CoX, so I won’t say a thing about that. Was nice game from what I heard/saw, but my concern is not about CoX or what NCsoft did or didn’t. I don’t like the idea that I was supporting Anet with my gem purchase and NCsoft moved majority of my money into different project.

  6. DC Characters in CoX – that was a problem since CoX’s inception, and back in the early days resulted in a lawsuit, with the settlement being mass bans and a new ToS. Making a character based on a comic book was one of the few things the mods in CoX would enforce a ban on someone for very rapidly.
    – So not so sure that is why CoX closed, when the problem was hashed out almost 8 years earlier. Sure people kept making them – but also kept getting banned.

    On the Canach plotline, and the general state of a number of GW2 plots: I’m getting slowly frustrated with being forced to play evil and beat up the good guys. Canach has so many John Brown parallels its just obvious to me that I should be backing him and wiping out the Consortium.
    – Not even getting a choice in this is annoying.

    (For other ethics plots where we’re forced onto the side of evil: we back the Queen over the bandits and Caudecus – who are each fighting for either government by the people or a Magna Carta like government, and we help the Asura experiment on Skritt. We also get to watch the Dredge, who stand for the cause of freedom and rights for all, portrayed as wacko deluded idiots for having such a viewpoint).

    1. @Kichwas

      Canach is evil, maybe a small evil, but evil. He REALLY don’t care about the consequences fo his acts. He don’t care about the settlers, he just want revenge.

      GW1, and GW2 too, have a lot of tons of gray, not clear good and evil. So the human King makes a very evil act that is bound all ghosts for eternally fight the charr and you start to doubt the humans were really good. Sometimes they made the players do quests for an evil faction and only at the end players found they were working for an evil faction (cough…. White Mantle).

      With relation to CoX, they closed but the reason was not that the game was losing money, the game was making money. But both NCSoft and Paragons Studios don’t talk about the real reason they closed the game. So, they don’t talk because they want not talk about it or because they CANNOT talk about it? The later one imply some legal procedue…

      My best conjecture is that is something about players creating characters from another franchise, I cannot see other legal reason for they close the game.

      1. @Kichwas
        Yeah – I noticed it too. I really liked it when they do that in GW1. There usually was some misconception, mistake or catharsis after this. Maybe in GW2 there still will be something like this, but for now, I’m unsatisfied.

        @João Carlos
        We meet again! :D
        I like Your point of view, just want to ask (because it lead me to some thinking and I want to share). Do You see Luke Skywalker as a bad or good guy? After all, while he was fighting for the cause, he blow up Deathstar, that was full of innocent people. You know – all the technicians, staff. Not only bad gunners or evil generals – they probably was in minority. And stormtroopers are another issue – if they are clones (like clonetroopers – never had chance to check it properly), that means they didn’t even had chance to have any choice. They were breed and tamed (not even trained – tamed) to do their job. Maybe on the moral level it seems like it’s relief, but on the other hand – in Clone Wars even Yoda have moral dilemmas about them. No, actually he didn’t, he treated them as a normal human beings. So should we consider them all guilty by association? All of them bad, because they choose empire or was forced to choose empire? SW lore is full of characters who abandoned empire to do great things, if I recall right, in book Luke wanned to leave Tatooine to become (imperial) pilot (can’t recall this inner monologue from movie, but I’ve watched ep.IV around 2005 last time…). So – Luke fighting for the cause, killing with one shot thousands of innocent people (along with hundreds of bad guys) is a good guy or villian?
        And Canach? History of my country is full of guys like him, I can relate. He was pushed to the limits, he crossed the line. Is he evil? Mad – for sure, but evil? Is evil evil, when it fights with greater evil? Is enemy of my enemy my friend or fiend of mine? Note that Canach is beaten but not dead, story still can change. And do You think, he doesn’t care for consequences? I believe opposite. He doesn’t care for fast outcome. People will get hurt? No matter, he’s not fighting for those people, he fight for people in general. For the idea – and yeah – revenge is part of that. It’s a math, calculation – are this victims blood and life worth of winning with consortium? If someone has pay with blood, for the future generation have a chance to not be consortium slaves… erm – employee? Add to this revange, money chase that seems to be only motivator for consortium and hey – is the Canach the evil Evil? Or maybe he’s bit broken, but still a hero fighting with something more evil?
        Back to Luke Skywalker – no matter what he did, he had to do it to save people who stood behind him. There was a lot of people on Yavin 4. How different is it from Canach saving those, who wasn’t affected by consortium… yet? The only difference is motivation – isn’t it? Isn’t? Canach is lead by revenge, or it’s all we know about him. Luke had his own revenge feelings (uncle, aunt…) between others. I don’t know if Canach have other motivations, but still – is it enough to call him evil and prise Luke as a savior?

        *And agree about GW1, I like they gray scale so much more. I know, it comes with instanced story building, but still. I wish they learn from themself a bit more.

  7. @jsSadOne

    “What chances do You think there are, that Anet is so arrogant, that they didn’t prepare plan B? ”
    If they had a plan B, maybe better they too have a plan C.

    Look at the LFG tool, that they will implement soon. Some people will say that GW2 had to have it since the launch. The problem is that GW2, as planned originally, never had need for a LFG tool: the world don’t need groups because everyone is grouped to everyone else (no kill steal, no competition for nodes) and the dungeons are an option and not obrigatory (except for Arah story).

    Then they launched fractals… and a LFG tool turned to be essential.


    The spectator mode is being tested and only a few players can create spvp maps. However, there are a lot of tourneys being broadcasts periodically. If that broadcasts happen while the system is being tested, what will happen when everyone have it?

    I am seeing a lot of players returning to play GW2. Yesterday Tarnished Coast had some players that returned making questions at LA map chat. My guild too have two or three returning players and some new players. GW2 is certainly at the “Slope of Enlightnement” phase.

    @Kichwas and @jsSadOne

    Just some GW2 lore for you: White Mantle is alive and well. That “human bandits” work for them. They have a base at Maguuma Jungle. Caudecus is a White Mantle agent and White Mantle don’t want a “Magna Carta”, they just want return to tyranny.

    Well, I made all human stories while at betas: Shining Blade and White Mantle are making a secret war. Some humans, that do’nt remember the White Mantle story of opression, are working for them as “human bandits” and maybe they never saw their real bosses face to face.

    From the GW2 wikia:

    “The White Mantle is a religious order who follow the mursaat. They were established by Saul D’Alessio 250 years ago during the Charr Invasion of Kryta and in turn took power when King Jadon fled the throne. After Saul’s death, they slowly turned into a tyrannical group, oppressing those who still believed in the Five Gods and killing them atop the bloodstone. They were defeated by the Shining Blade in 1079 AE and power was restored to the monarchy under Queen Salma. The White Mantle retreated to the Maguuma Jungle, where they have thrived in secret, even without the guidance of their false gods, hoping to one day return.

    In modern times, they are behind many of the bandit attacks in attempts to bring down Queen Jennah and the Krytan government. Most are unaware that they are still operating, considering them a myth told on Mad King’s Day.

    They’re known to have cells in the Hunting Lodge and Jannaj’s Bandits.”

    1. “The problem is that GW2, as planned originally, never had need for a LFG tool… Then they launched fractals… and a LFG tool turned to be essential” – disagree. It’s essential for every dungeon. After first month it was clear, that doing any story dungeon will need some stretching (because of no reasonable reward for doing this more than once) and providing cross server LFG if Anet doesn’t want to make this activity restricted for guilds or spamfest in LA or maps is obligatory. Well, to sum it up, LFG for explo paths of any dungeon is at least needed. If not for gw2lfg web page, all dungeons except AC (before nerf) and CoF would be unplayable. Same with story mode – all except AC in days when story dung is a daily, seems to be abandoned.

      “few players can create spvp maps” – that was true till 28th may. Now everyone with gems can :D “Custom Arena Time Tokens are now available in the Gem Store in the Services category to add time to your favorite arenas: 5 days for 150 gems or 20 days for 480 gems” – from wiki “Update – 28 May 2013” notes. Helpful if You want to host a tournament, but with current state of PvP it’s waste of money in my opinion.

      “The spectator mode is being tested…” – I’m talking about forced implementation of it to regular hot join. If You don’t know, exploit exist now (from day one of spectator availability), that lets You be in winning team in 9 matches of 10. We can say, that Anet doesn’t care much for hotjoin, tPvP is their priority, but that’s exactly the problem. tPvP ain’t in good state either and hotjoin is usually peoples first experience with sPvP. Having exploit like this leads to pathological situations. Add to this (fortunately changed back to original now) daily we had few weeks ago, that almost forced brainded zerging and stupid actions (just to catch those kills and node captures) and You have community that do 2 things in PvP, that in normal PvP would get You killed and Your team lost – zerging and fishing for hot seats to win match. Not playing to win, not improving – but using flaws of system to get points. Where in PvE such exploits would be fixed within day or two with hotfix, PvP had to wait almost month to change back daily and is waiting to fix spectator mode since it was presented. Spectator as tool to watch other players game is more or less ok. Lil clunky, but does it job. What it shouldn’t do, is to allow players to mess with roster to move gamer to winning team (yeah, I submitted this bug, posted on forum… and while Anet didn’t answer for my or any other player complaints [above deleting our posts], I use it myself from time to time XD – great morals I have, great ^^ ). I know it’s just hotjoin, it’s not serious match, but that shows how Anet treat PvP in general. It’s hard to think different when 50% of available options (hotjoin) ain’t treated seriously and another 50% (tPvP) is far from perfect (or ok even).

      “GW2 is certainly at the “Slope of Enlightnement” phase” – well, that’s Your opinion. I hope you’re right, but from where I’m standing, it’s still between “Peak of inflated Expectations” and “Trough of Disillusionment” phase. I see a new players – true, but they are new-new. Like “new box” new and new to the game – and it does make me happy. What I do not see, are players who get back to game and players who I saw 2 days ago or week ago. I had around 30 friends from real life who bought GW2 at some point and only 1 is playing with me now. Can’t say that I can convince any of +-29 to get back. They’ve back to LoL, WoW, TSW, even SWtOR (if You want to check – SwtOR is reaching its “Plateau of Productivity” what annoy and amaze me at the same time) and are investing their time and emotions in different game. Do I think, they’ll be back in GW2? Probably not. To invested in other games and new titles (tESO, Camelot) are on horizon before they’ll be bored enough to consider to back to GW2. Sad. And I don’t have any statistic to prove that, as far as I know no one except Anet and NCsoft does, but on my counting – the playerbase is still shrinking and it doesn’t fit in my “Slope of Enlightnement” concept. Maybe “Slope of Enlightnement” started sooner in Your region – I envy You if that is true. No matter, if it didn’t really started, or started already in my server and I didn’t noticed – I’m almost sure “Trough of Disillusionment” is/was close so it will be better now. That doesn’t mean it’s good now (or bad XD ) and I can start cheering -_- . I want this game to manage well, not to tell myself that it does, when it doesn’t. My feelings doesn’t change things I see. I can enjoy game with broken community, but that doesn’t change the fact that community is broken (not that I’m saying it is, it’s just comparison of thoughts).

      About “White Mantle” – I know. I just wrote, that I don’t think they have army like in GW1. No indications for that in game lore. They were crushed in similar manner like Sith (if You let me borrow from Star Wars again) in Old Republic times and become something like Sith in New Republic/Empire times. Or in other words, they are more like illuminati or every other secret society. Pulling the strings to put things in motion, but without physical involvement. Another thing to point out in Crystal Desert. Whole ascension, infused gear was really important in fight with Mursaat and bind to Crystal Desert at the same time…

      1. @jcSadOne

        Dungeons were optional and continue to be optional. The tokens players gain from dungeons are for buy gear that have no better stats than crafted or droped gear. That dungeon gear is cosmetic and everything cosmetic in GW2 is optional. The only dungeon that is not optional is Arah story mode, because players need complete it for complete story quests. Anything that is cosmetic (including the legendary weapons…) is optional.

        With relation to “Slope of Enlightnement”, I admit the cases I saw at my server, Tarnished Coast, are only anedoctal evidence, but too whatever you are seeing at your server. Other anedoctal evidence is what you read at the top of Reddit GW2 forum (http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/): “Returning player? Please read this wiki page before making a post”. I think it is funny that everyone saying that Rift had more players than GW2 now see Rift going F2P…

        With relation to all the games you quoted (“LoL, WoW, TSW, even SWtOR”), LoL is not a MMO, WoW just lose 1 million subscripters last quarter*, and all others are WoW/EQ MMO model (TOR is WoW with lightsabers), something that GW2 not follow, and if someone want something diferent from all other MMO there is only GW2 in the market while WildStar not come. And while all I saw about WildStar say that they are going out the WoW-clone model, maybe be prudent wait and see. With relation to Camelot, that guy said something about “bears, bears, bears” if I am not wrong… and I really don’t believe that a game with only pvp and rvr have any good future.

        With relation to spvp, the number of people watching matches in the web is growing since they launched the spectator mode.

        With relation to White Mantle, while we can discuss GW1 and GW2 lore for all eternity, take note that GW2 is most than 200 years after GW1, so they had a lot of time for recreate an army…. but it is better we don’t stay 200 years discussing how powerfull can be the current White Mantle, we will know at the next years while the game add new zones and living stories. For now let’s see what faction is Lady Kasmeer….

        * Currently, WoW subscripters numbers don’t fit the Gartner Hype Cycle curve, but fit the thecnical obsolescence curve. For that reason IMHO we will see that serious bleeding of subscripters continue until WoW goes F2P.

        1. Hahaha… don’t make me laugh. Everything is optional. Story is optional – why do You “have” to do Arah or any personal story – finishing it doesn’t give You anything. Explo dungs give You at least tokens for armor (which lead into changes in Your gamplay abilities), but story missions? Some crappy armor, that You can salvage, because in 90% You already have something better. Ah, ok – few unique skins, yeah – really a necessity. With this logic, everything is optional – You wrote that LFG become needed after introduction of Fractals – why? By Your logic it’s still fully optional. You don’t have to even set a foot in FotM to get Your ascended gear now – do guild missions, do dailies for laurel (now when they added this option). No, really, sorry if I sound a bit rough, but this is nonsense.

          I don’t know about Rift, but I can say about my former SWtOR guild, that came back to SWtOR in major force. And when GW2 came out, everyone said, that it literally killed Old Republic. But it’s still alive. When I’ve last logged in (around 2 days ago) I saw community of +- same size that I see in GW2 on my server. It doesn’t look like beaten game – and it should with this horrendous cash shop. And as I stated before – I still see some outflow of community in GW2, while SWtOR have surge for a months now… and I don’t like idea of comparison GW2 to SWtOR, because I find Guild Wars far superior. And yeah – I believe that when Rift will go f2p, their playerbase will grow a bit, which can affect GW2. At the same time I think Rift is more of competition for WoW and SWtOR, so not our problem in long run.

          With all due respect – I didn’t mention MMOs, I mentioned games that treat PvP seriously. I was writing about state of PvP, which makes whole Your point invalid. Do You really think players will choose games on MMO / not MMO basis? They want to play PvP – GW2 promised them great PvP and didn’t deliver. What other PvP giants are there? WoW? Too much grinding and farming to play proper PvP (still if someone done it before playing GW2, he’s ready already and believe me – WoWs PvP do stand a chance against GW2). SWtOR? Crappy PvP, but still at the moment with bigger playerbase than GW2 have. LoL and DOTA2 are as You said, not a MMO. Does it change anything? Nope. Because they are awesome and PvP oriented. If game like GW2 is advertised (with only few interviews but still) to be a e-sport, and You love to be an e-sportsman, You go check it. When You see a thing like GW2 PvP, You get burned and back to things You know that are better – LoL, DOTA or even WoW (if You like that kind of thing). Heck – GW1 still have a lot better PvP. And judging that lot of my friends (including me) still play GW1 PvP and none except me play GW2 PvP…

          “and I really don’t believe that a game with only pvp and rvr have any good future” – why? It’s risky, I know, to depend so much on community so heavily, but how different is it for You from GW2 WvW? That You can do other things in GW2? Have You talked with people in WvW much? Most WvW oriented guilds contains players who log in to the game and go straight to WvW. They didn’t check PvE for months, or You want to count this 5 seconds time they need to click “go to EB” button as playing in PvE? And I’m talking about WvW oriented guilds on my PvE oriented servers. Think about WvW titans from T1. And making game depending on PvP and WvW/RvR is not as risky as we think. Look at LoL and DOTA – they are not MMO, but MMO is only a name – “A rose by any other name would smell as sweet”. Look at Warhammer – when game started it’s dieing circle (that last till today) majority of playerbase stuck with RvR. So if You check now, WaR is RvR only game, with wastelands of dead PvE areas. Do You still think that, “PvP and RvR only” games have no place on this world? I don’t know, but I believe there is at least possibility. I know that guys behind Camelot are sure there is – they wouldn’t put their money into this if they were thinking different. Considering that all can be done in GW2 WvW, You don’t really need PvE if You don’t want to. You’re not there for story for sure and everything else seems achievable.

          “With relation to spvp, the number of people watching matches in the web is growing since they launched the spectator mode.” – agree. Hard not to. It was zero before, it have to grow ;). And yeah, pages like mmorpg do a lot of good job to make it an e-sport. Kudos. I’m not joking – they really do miracles. They are building something awesome on still unsteady ground. I just wish Anet put as much effort into PvP as Blu and Grouch does into promoting the GW2 PvP. We can say all we want, but it’s easy to see that PvP needs lots and lots of love and Anet seems to be struggling between giving the love to PvE and not giving it at all…

          Agree on White Mantle :D. And Lady Kasmeer… my kind of faction – bikini squad! :D

          *WoW is phenomenon all along. Gartner Hype Cycle curve doesn’t apply to it (not yet at least), because it’s like astrology theories. To make some math, to make some predictions about universe You need to choose spot that You will relate to. In our neighborhood it’s the sun. We say how earth circle around sun, days are counted by sunrise and sunset, we claim that our days are shorter by 37 minutes and 22 seconds than days on mars, and venus days are 243 earth days or 5,832 hours. All of that in contrast to our sun, because it’s our spot in universe. That’s the star that shines on our egos ;). WoW is a sun of MMO galaxy. It let us to set theories like “Gartner Hype Cycle curve”. It doesn’t mean, that when WoW will burn out (and it will some day) all the theories become invalid, it will just mean that gravity of our mind will try to find new sun – new king. Will it take WoWs role? Not instant for sure, but maybe with time. Theories will stay valid till something really big change the face of MMOs.

  8. @jcSadOne

    A game with only pvp and rvr is not risky, it is a sure disaster. That game will have a lot of wolves but no lamb, because the lambs have a lot of “carebears” MMO for play. The “golden age” of UO pvp will never return from dead and the interesting thing about that “golden age” is how fast it died after EQ was launched and lambs had other MMO for play. But if you want believe at the “bears bears bears” guy again, I just can advice: “fool me one time…”

    I too don’t believe a sandbox model will bring back the “golden age”, because the creation in a sandbox depends upon the tools the devs give to players and player creativity. The tools normally are lacking funtions and the players are 1% creative ones (or less) and all rest all same no creativity. Just look the forge at both STO and Neverwinter: a lot of “meh” dungeons, only a few are good. Maybe Everquest Next bring something new to the sandbox model with storybricks, but the player creativity will continue to be lacking.

    Wait a few more for spvp as e-sport: it will happen, slowly. Devgs are doing the changes that need for it and there are a lot of players that want try something that is not P2W like LoL.

    WoW at launch followed the Gartner curve (but need look it with month to month data from 2005), from there to Lich had an exponential curve, but after it started to follow the “fall of videocassete” curve. You can look it at http://users.telenet.be/mmodata/Charts/Subs-1.png, that don’t have the data for end of 2012 and 2013. Currently WoW have 8 millions subs, but the bleed continues and the question is how many players WoW will lose until next expansion. IMHO, the cause of WoW fall is obsoloscence is that it cannot compete with the variety of new F2P/B2P MMO in the market. With new titles being launched soon that are F2P/B2P (WildStar) the competition will be more intense and In 2 years or less WoW too will go F2P.

    Take note that WoW will lose more players for Rift F2P than GW2 will lose, not only at total numbers, but at percentile numbers too: what Rift have to offer that GW2 do’nt have, both have dynamic quests (Rift is more traditional quest oriented), Rift have the raids, you know, that thing everyone is bored at WoW: the carrot and the donkey.

    1. “game with only pvp and rvr is not risky, it is a sure disaster” – it’s Your opinion. The question should be “is MMO with only PvP and RvR risky”, because facts about any “game with only pvp and rvr is not risky, it is a sure disaster” prove You wrong. Any moba game I’ve tried proves You wrong. So I’ll assume You’ve meant game as and MMO game. “Bears bears bears” is a big mistake and something we should acknowledge, before we put faith again in this man, but You’re forgetting one thing. The guy wasn’t only one to blame. It’s like driving a car – the principle of limited trust. I wont judge him now on things he did before. Am I suspicious? Sure. I won’t invest my money in Camelot in day one, same as I wont buy any Bioware game in day 1, after what happened with Dragon Age 2.

      And what do You mean by LoL being P2W? Like pay to win? I need to disagree with that. Played LoL for some time and never need to spend a dime for anything to make myslef stronger. Skins doesn’t change a thing and buying another Champion won’t make Yuo stronger. In the end, You take one Champion into match and better You know him, the better You’ll play. Owning to many champs just waterdown my skills, I had around ten I think and still played mostly Malzahar, and this squirell dude with bombs (don’t remember the name – Zigs I think). Playing another one from time to time (Vaigar), was really streaching my limits.

      About sandbox – I’m conflicted. Not my stuff actually. I did enjoy my short time in EVE, so I’m willing to believe that sandbox done good could be amazing. Neverwinter is meh game altogether. You say that only 1% of stuff is worthy of Your time. How long it have been since NW gone open beta? 2 weeks? 3? As a guy who did a lot of modding for NWN2 and Morrowind I can tell You, that the best things are yet to come. And even if it will be only 1%… if NW won’t fail as a game, there gonna be enough moders (forgers? how to call them) to make the real number impressive. Let’s say every month You’ll get 10-25 great stories and dungeons. Some really short, some a bit longer, but it is possible and it’s around 2-3 times more than Anets Live Team can deliver. And notice one thing – Anet need to pay for all of this to happen, Cryptic is making money on it. Above that? I do not consider Neverwinter to be sandbox game. It’s painfully thempark with horrendous cash shop, with one good thing – editor. But it doesn’t make the game a sandbox.

      “Wait a few more for spvp as e-sport” – I hope You’re right. I really do. I’m more afraid it will be burned before, because people want to force GW2 into becoming e-sport, and GW2 PvP is not ready. So yea, I’m here with You – we need time :).

      Agree about WoW. Still it was, is and will be impressive. So many lucky coincidence about WoW success, that it amaze me every time I think about it.

      “Take note that WoW will lose more players for Rift F2P than GW2 will lose” – totally agree. The problem is the fact, that WoW is bleeding and still can bleed a lot more of playerbase and be healthy. It’s 8 millions of active playerbase, against what? 3 millions sold boxes. In game that depends on playerbase a lot more than WoW is. Of course I’m not counting private servers for WoW – they don’t change a thing… but suck out playerbase from other games. GW2 on the other had can bleed aswell and still be financially healthy, but due to massive playerbase events design – the gameplay won’t be as good at the same time. So depending on the numbers – Rift can steal enough players form WoW and as little form GW2 to make GW2 stronger, or steal lets say… 50 players from WoW for every 1 player from GW2 and it will be enough to hurt Anets production to change the tactic. That will mean more less polished content, smaller story arcs and faster box expansion cycle. If the box expansion will be good – great. Whatever won’t kill You makes You stronger. If not? Oh well. It’s happened once before – in GW1 in Prophecies early days. Hench (and later Heroes with Nightfall campaign) were added to fix somehow missing playerbase. Then Anet won, I’m not clairvoyant, can’t say what will happen now.

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